West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[Columbuseer]

I don't think that's been the biggest issue with WL here lately, as they are so scrappy and able to get other teams bigs in foul trouble or just down right tired that they aren't much of a factor in a Hilltopper game. I haven't seen WL lose a game because of another's team post play in a loooooong time. West liberty's issue now is finding a go to guy that can create his own shot and can get you a bucket when their outside shots aren't falling or another team is going on a 14-0, 16-0 run. They have a few 10 to 17 ppg players, which works in the regular season, but when Conference or NCAA tournament games come around and you get a 12-0 run thrown at you, you need a player to stop the bleeding. We need 1 or 2 individuals that are "outside the system" players.

You make some good points.
I think next season's added height will address the rebounding disparity that occurred last season.
Also, last season we had to double down on inside bigs which left opposing guards with open threes after the kick out pass.

We had 2 all region players ( 1 1st team and 1 second team). But the open question to me is whether we will be able to land a national player of the year level player in today's NIL environment.

We have had poor success with "outside the system" players. I remember 1 guy who was an unstoppable scorer, who averaged 46 pts per 40 minutes. But he could not defend anyone or play a team game. He left the team.

Imho the wlu style is based on 5 principles:
- complete, high motor players who can pass, shoot and dribble. One of the advantages of wlu style is that opponents cannot just focus on 1 player for the last shot. Everyone has the ability to score.
- ideally get a great shot on every possession
- forcing turnovers
- inducing fatigue in opponent
- winning rebounding battle

These new bigs can shoot the three and are strong rebounders. They may force double teams which could result in open looks for threes on kickout passes.

[TopperNation]

You make some good points.
I think next season's added height will address the rebounding disparity that occurred last season.
Also, last season we had to double down on inside bigs which left opposing guards with open threes after the kick out pass.

We had 2 all region players ( 1 1st team and 1 second team). But the open question to me is whether we will be able to land a national player of the year level player in today's NIL environment.

We have had poor success with "outside the system" players. I remember 1 guy who was an unstoppable scorer, who averaged 46 pts per 40 minutes. But he could not defend anyone or play a team game. He left the team.

Imho the wlu style is based on 5 principles:
- complete, high motor players who can pass, shoot and dribble. One of the advantages of wlu style is that opponents cannot just focus on 1 player for the last shot. Everyone has the ability to score.
- ideally get a great shot on every possession
- forcing turnovers
- inducing fatigue in opponent
- winning rebounding battle

These new bigs can shoot the three and are strong rebounders. They may force double teams which could result in open looks for threes on kickout passes.

I totally agree with you, that at times we had to double down on inside bigs, leaving an array of open shots by opposing team guards, so the new height is very beneficial in that matter. Yes, we had 2 all region guys, but neither could create his own shot consistently. Maybe the game against Cal State Dominquez Hills is still too fresh in my mind, but during that 18-0 run I was baffled on just how WL had nobody who could break someone down off the dribble and pull up just once! But I get it, with the new NIL situation we may not have a huge pool of those types of players. I like the talent we have coming in, I just hope we find a player who can break someone down off the dribble and can pull up every once in a blue moon. I believe coach Howlett will get it done.

[Columbuseer]

I totally agree with you, that at times we had to double down on inside bigs, leaving an array of open shots by opposing team guards, so the new height is very beneficial in that matter. Yes, we had 2 all region guys, but neither could create his own shot consistently. Maybe the game against Cal State Dominquez Hills is still too fresh in my mind, but during that 18-0 run I was baffled on just how WL had nobody who could break someone down off the dribble and pull up just once! But I get it, with the new NIL situation we may not have a huge pool of those types of players. I like the talent we have coming in, I just hope we find a player who can break someone down off the dribble and can pull up every once in a blue moon. I believe coach Howlett will get it done.

At times, I started to see glimpses of "go to" potential in Woodward. Butler is making huge improvements in Woodward's back to the basket game. There were times when opponents were grabbing air on his pivots. He can finish with either hand. Since he is a pass first big (sometimes overly so), they could run the offense through him in a tight game to get easy scores.
I am very impressed how coach Howlett can adapt to widely varying roster compositions from year to year.

[TopperNation]

At times, I started to see glimpses of "go to" potential in Woodward. Butler is making huge improvements in Woodward's back to the basket game. There were times when opponents were grabbing air on his pivots. He can finish with either hand. Since he is a pass first big (sometimes overly so), they could run the offense through him in a tight game to get easy scores.
I am very impressed how coach Howlett can adapt to widely varying roster compositions from year to year.

I agree, coach Howlett is great at adjusting to his roster and their strengths. The problem with having the offense run through Woodward is he's a back to the basket player, which screams for traps and double teams and doesn't leave much space to operate. If he could face up (See Bryce Butler, lol) and break a defender down, now we got something to work with. I'm actually hoping that D' Augustino can improve his game in that department. He seems athletic and skillful enough to create his own shot when times get rough for the offense. I've also seen glimpses from Spadafora, so maybe he steps up? Like I said before, we don't need a 1 on 1 player 80 percent of the time, because the system usually works. But, can I get someone to fill in that 10 percent, lol.

[Columbuseer]

I agree, coach Howlett is great at adjusting to his roster and their strengths. The problem with having the offense run through Woodward is he's a back to the basket player, which screams for traps and double teams and doesn't leave much space to operate. If he could face up (See Bryce Butler, lol) and break a defender down, now we got something to work with. I'm actually hoping that D' Augustino can improve his game in that department. He seems athletic and skillful enough to create his own shot when times get rough for the offense. I've also seen glimpses from Spadafora, so maybe he steps up? Like I said before, we don't need a 1 on 1 player 80 percent of the time, because the system usually works. But, can I get someone to fill in that 10 percent, lol.

A Shuler-type player could be a great addition. He was so quick and could finish at the rim. Great defender too.

I have high hopes for Miller. He is strong and seems to have a quick first step and seems to be comfortable in the open court. He just did not get much chance to show it at Point Park.

If folks double team Woodward he will likely find dragas (46% 3fg) or Tinsley (45% 3fg) wide open.

[boatcapt]

I'm not a big fan of "make your own shot." A step too close to "hero ball" that has at times reared it's head on the hilltop (not so much last year...but the two years previous it happened way to often).

My opinion is we have lacked are multiple players shooting consitent high pressure 3 point shoots. During past seasons when WLU was running well, they had multiple 3 point shooters that would hit consistently .300++. Last year (and the year before?) we seemed to live and die off of finding one player with a hot hand...occasionally we did, but quite often, we didn't.

Having three bigs will help us most by giving us defensive and rebounding options when we are playing teams with multiple athletic bigs. If they can shoot the 3, that's a good thing and can and will move their opposite number away from the basket. I'm not opposed to an occasional inside/post game but as a way to kick out for an open 3 if the D collapses. Same with a dribble/drive game...focus should be on driving and kicking to the open 3.

[TopperNation]

I'm not a big fan of "make your own shot." A step too close to "hero ball" that has at times reared it's head on the hilltop (not so much last year...but the two years previous it happened way to often).

My opinion is we have lacked are multiple players shooting consitent high pressure 3 point shoots. During past seasons when WLU was running well, they had multiple 3 point shooters that would hit consistently .300++. Last year (and the year before?) we seemed to live and die off of finding one player with a hot hand...occasionally we did, but quite often, we didn't.

Having three bigs will help us most by giving us defensive and rebounding options when we are playing teams with multiple athletic bigs. If they can shoot the 3, that's a good thing and can and will move their opposite number away from the basket. I'm not opposed to an occasional inside/post game but as a way to kick out for an open 3 if the D collapses. Same with a dribble/drive game...focus should be on driving and kicking to the open 3.

I don't think anyone wants to see "hero" ball or "Make your own shot" on a consistent bases, but there are times and points in a game where that is needed. There have been times where WL shots weren't falling and we needed someone to "make a play", as I don't think it's possible to think that every offensive set is going to work and that there aren't going to be droughts in games. Again, I'm not talking Iso ball 5-7 times a game, I'm asking to get us a bucket to stop the 12-0; 18-0 runs. Now, WL normally doesn't get these put on them, but they do come up during games like in Vegas, the conference tournament, and in recently the NCAA tournament. Who knows, maybe we do have that guy on the roster now, lol.

[Columbuseer]

I don't think anyone wants to see "hero" ball or "Make your own shot" on a consistent bases, but there are times and points in a game where that is needed. There have been times where WL shots weren't falling and we needed someone to "make a play", as I don't think it's possible to think that every offensive set is going to work and that there aren't going to be droughts in games. Again, I'm not talking Iso ball 5-7 times a game, I'm asking to get us a bucket to stop the 12-0; 18-0 runs. Now, WL normally doesn't get these put on them, but they do come up during games like in Vegas, the conference tournament, and in recently the NCAA tournament. Who knows, maybe we do have that guy on the roster now, lol.

Wlu got decent shots in elite 8.
WLU played an excellent first half. At the 17:26 mark of 2nd half, WLU was up by 17 points. Then a perfect storm arrived, even though WLU was getting open looks. In the remainder of the game:
• WLU missed 5 layups (they made 8).
• WLU was 1 for 8 3PTRs
• WLU was 2 for 8 in jump shots.
• CSDH was 9 for 11 layups.
• CSDH was 4 for 11 from 3PTRS

Shooting is normally distributed. For example if the mean 3pt. % is 40%, then 68% of the samples will fall between 25% and 55% ( plus or minus 1 std. Deviation). If this normal variation happens against a good team, then a loss is possible.

[boatcapt]

I don't think anyone wants to see "hero" ball or "Make your own shot" on a consistent bases, but there are times and points in a game where that is needed. There have been times where WL shots weren't falling and we needed someone to "make a play", as I don't think it's possible to think that every offensive set is going to work and that there aren't going to be droughts in games. Again, I'm not talking Iso ball 5-7 times a game, I'm asking to get us a bucket to stop the 12-0; 18-0 runs. Now, WL normally doesn't get these put on them, but they do come up during games like in Vegas, the conference tournament, and in recently the NCAA tournament. Who knows, maybe we do have that guy on the roster now, lol.

Hmmm...You wouldn't be advocation for a secondary offensive style would you? Maybe something we could use when either our shots weren't falling or when the other team had our number? Hahahaha! I seem to remember advocating for something similar a while back.and was told it couldn't be done...the demands of the WLU Style were too exacting to waste time on a style that we'd only need a few times a year.

[Columbuseer]

Regardless of style, shooting is normally distributed. There is no magic alternate style that defeats the bell curve of the normal distribution. Look at jimmy butler of warriors. Incredible 1 on 1 player, but he was missing point blank shots at the rim in one close loss. The normal distribution is always there.

The wlu style wins 86% of games, which is much better than other styles. When shots are not dropping, defense becomes critical. In elite 8 csdh was hitting incredibly difficult contested shots in their run. I am optimistic that in this season we will have much better defensive bigs, who can help us weather those storms by the opponent.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Regardless of style, shooting is normally distributed. There is no magic alternate style that defeats the bell curve of the normal distribution. Look at jimmy butler of celtics. Incredible 1 on 1 player, but he was missing point blank shots at the rim in one close loss. The normal distribution is always there.

The wlu style wins 86% of games, which is much better than other styles. When shots are not dropping, defense becomes critical. In elite 8 csdh was hitting incredibly difficult contested shots in their run. I am optimistic that in this season we will have much better defensive bigs, who can help us weather those storms by the opponent.

Well, the Celtics haven't been able to hit the side of a barn in their losses and still just keep chucking and chucking and chucking.

NBA playoff basketball is just different. It's called WAY differently. They let them pummel each other in the playoffs which really hampers the finesse teams.

If I recall the Celtics shot 25 of 110 from deep in the first two games of the Knicks series (both losses). They blew 20-point leads in both.

[IUPHawks24]

Regardless of style, shooting is normally distributed. There is no magic alternate style that defeats the bell curve of the normal distribution. Look at jimmy butler of celtics. Incredible 1 on 1 player, but he was missing point blank shots at the rim in one close loss. The normal distribution is always there.

The wlu style wins 86% of games, which is much better than other styles. When shots are not dropping, defense becomes critical. In elite 8 csdh was hitting incredibly difficult contested shots in their run. I am optimistic that in this season we will have much better defensive bigs, who can help us weather those storms by the opponent.

jimmy butler plays for the warriors

[Columbuseer]

jimmy butler plays for the warriors

Thanks. Will edit to correct. Guessing proves I don't watch nba much. Lol

[Columbuseer]

Well, the Celtics haven't been able to hit the side of a barn in their losses and still just keep chucking and chucking and chucking.

NBA playoff basketball is just different. It's called WAY differently. They let them pummel each other in the playoffs which really hampers the finesse teams.

If I recall the Celtics shot 25 of 110 from deep in the first two games of the Knicks series (both losses). They blew 20-point leads in both.

Good illustration of normal distribution. In game 3 Celtics were 20 for 40 from three 50% and won 115-93. Drives fans nuts but that is the nature of the normal distribution. Celtics could not sufficiently stop Knicks defensively when they were on a cold streak.

[TopperNation]

Hmmm...You wouldn't be advocation for a secondary offensive style would you? Maybe something we could use when either our shots weren't falling or when the other team had our number? Hahahaha! I seem to remember advocating for something similar a while back.and was told it couldn't be done...the demands of the WLU Style were too exacting to waste time on a style that we'd only need a few times a year.

Bingo! You have to have multiple styles and answers in the NCAA tournament...The idea that if our shots aren't falling that we just need to turn the defense up doesn't fly when the opposing team has a guy who can create his own shots. Good offense beats good defense in basketball. I've actually participated in quite a few WL open gyms (I was going to transfer to WL in 1999), and realize the importance of being able to change your style. Case in point, a few years ago WL continued to try and press North West Missouri State at the elite eight and was continuously getting scorched by NWMS guard Trevor Hudgins. They refused to take the full court press off until midway through the 2nd half when they thought "hey let's do a half court press and trap", which freaking gave NWMS fits, but by then it was too late. Morale of the story....You need to have different styles and ways to defend or score points.