West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[IUP24]

You should really have a long call with Ben about scheduling more creampuffs. Rants on here don't accomplish anything. He's the boss.

Of note your other WL fans don't seem to mind playing better teams in the non-conf. The days of it just being two good teams in the Atlantic are long gone. He is scheduling more for the resume than the perceived false theory of Nov. games impacting March performance.

My selective recall is recalling reading your same complaints every time WL loses to a real team in the non-conf.

I think that the Atlantic Regional is a brutal tournament each and every year. In my opinion, it's one of, if not, the deepest regions in the country.

There's a bunch of good teams all playing a wide variety of styles. The up-tempo game of WLU and Mercyhurst's triangle and two defense are about as contrasting styles as you can get. In certain years, Gannon has had really, really tough teams that didn't go down easy. Slippery Rock and Hurst have both pulled off big upsets. Fairmont State has proven to be a mainstay in the MEC and in the NCAA field. Other PSAC teams not named IUP such as Kutztown, West Chester, and East Stroudsburg have gone on deep runs in the Regional. The CIAA appears to be getting stronger.

Nobody has cut down the net yet, but the winner of the region each year always represents us very well. It shows that this is a tough region to get through. The days of IUP and WLU being the only two real combatants are long over. It's only a matter of time before somebody wins the last game.

[IUP24]

That was the "argument" that some made. If I remember correctly, the major proponents of having WLU play a tougher early season schedule were fans of OTHER teams. Always struck me as odd that fans of another regional power would want us to derive what they foisted as the great post season benefit of playing tougher teams. Always felt that it was more a desire to have us lose additional games which would positively effect THEIR ability to host regionals.

If I remember correctly, the often spouted lines were:

1. WLU needs to play a tougher OOC schedule.
2. WLU needs to play early games on the road.

Folks on the board did point to the 17-18 seeding and say "SEE...YOU DON'T PLAY TOUGH LIKE US AND THIS IS WHAT YOU GET." Of course, they convienantly ignore 14, 15, 16 and 17 when we garnered top 3 seedings (and two Regional Championships) playing an easy OOC schedule.

I'm sure somebody cares enough to spend 25 minutes looking all of this up, but what were the records of the other teams seeded above or below WL during those years? That has a ton to do with it to. Getting seeded 4th with a 26-2 record has as much to do with other teams finishing with essentially the same record, but a better SOS.

I'm reading through these posts and I just don't see your point here, Boat. To BigIndians' point, his schedule in the non-conference is pretty weak. It's not as though he scheduled 3-4 potential tournament teams in the OOC. Your point is that you think the loss to Daemen will make a difference in seeding, hosting privileges, or even making the tournament at all. If WLU scheduled Penn State Fayette instead and won that game, are they really that much better for it? You don't have to schedule murder's row, but what you're suggesting just seems like a chicken sh*t way to live your life.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

That would be fine except I wouldn't want the tough game in November...Ideally it would be over Christmas break as WLU has done a couple of times in the now distant past. You call and Joe and I'll call Ben...I'm sure both would be happy to have our scheduling input!

Far be it for me to give scheduling advice, but I think a season should build...several easy games to open the season...several games against teams that are probably going to finish in the .500 area...and then a tough "Christmas Tune-up." Build into the meat of your conference schedule...then Conf Tourney and peek for the NCAA Tourney. It really is counter productive for a team to have to peek early and then try to hold their edge through March. And games vs D3 or NAIA should count as negative points!!!!!

You work on scheduling and we'll work on not redshirting transfers.

From what I've watched this year (and I watch a little bit of everybody) ... I don't see a dominant team. I think it was IUP pre-Demo ACL. But, as of now I could see the Regional host having 3-4 losses. Mercyhurst is 4-3 but has also played the whole season minus the opener without its best player. Kutztown's star has missed the whole year. Lot of stars on the shelf. WL has had its issues.

There are many good teams this year. Not sure if there are any great teams.

[boatcapt]

I see some of Boat's side to the non-conference. For years and years Joe has done the polar opposite.

Last season IUP'S schedule was so brutal that many beleive they just wore out in the second half. I've never seen a tougher first half schedule than he played last year. Ever. And, in March he had little to show for it minus the PSAC Title. The conference title is a great thing but that team was built for much larger things. There's been years he's missed the NCAAs because they played (and lost) to Ferris State and Findlay rather than playing two creampuffs. He had a young team that year and it made no sense to open the season with two powers (Ferris won the title that year).

Ideal world, I'd prefer one marquee game, 1-2 meatballs and 3-4 against .500-ish teams. The marquee game is a great tune-up for the conference season. It's also good for the fans. Nobody wants to see the big dogs playing D3 teams or the trash of D2 over and over.

The resume is a real factor in selecting those schedules. With so many strong teams in the Atlantic nowadays if you want to host you have to have very strong metrics. Heck, you need strong metrics just to get invited.

It's not basketball season if there's not at least some bickering on here.

That would be fine except I wouldn't want the tough game in November...Ideally it would be over Christmas break as WLU has done a couple of times in the now distant past. You call and Joe and I'll call Ben...I'm sure both would be happy to have our scheduling input!

Far be it for me to give scheduling advice, but I think a season should build...several easy games to open the season...several games against teams that are probably going to finish in the .500 area...and then a tough "Christmas Tune-up." Build into the meat of your conference schedule...then Conf Tourney and peek for the NCAA Tourney. It really is counter productive for a team to have to peek early and then try to hold their edge through March. And games vs D3 or NAIA should count as negative points!!!!!

[boatcapt]

You should really have a long call with Ben about scheduling more creampuffs. Rants on here don't accomplish anything. He's the boss.

Of note your other WL fans don't seem to mind playing better teams in the non-conf. The days of it just being two good teams in the Atlantic are long gone. He is scheduling more for the resume than the perceived false theory of Nov. games impacting March performance.

My selective recall is recalling reading your same complaints every time WL loses to a real team in the non-conf.

You must have a really good selective memory! Before last year, the last time WLU lost an OOC game was 8 years ago (2011) when they lost to Finlay!

Not going to talk to Ben. I would hope he has more important things to do than talk to a fan about his scheduling and I would certainly hope he doesn't take "advice" from a message board!

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I see some of Boat's side to the non-conference. For years and years Joe has done the polar opposite.

Last season IUP'S schedule was so brutal that many beleive they just wore out in the second half. I've never seen a tougher first half schedule than he played last year. Ever. And, in March he had little to show for it minus the PSAC Title. The conference title is a great thing but that team was built for much larger things. There's been years he's missed the NCAAs because they played (and lost) to Ferris State and Findlay rather than playing two creampuffs. He had a young team that year and it made no sense to open the season with two powers (Ferris won the title that year).

Ideal world, I'd prefer one marquee game, 1-2 meatballs and 3-4 against .500-ish teams. The marquee game is a great tune-up for the conference season. It's also good for the fans. Nobody wants to see the big dogs playing D3 teams or the trash of D2 over and over.

The resume is a real factor in selecting those schedules. With so many strong teams in the Atlantic nowadays if you want to host you have to have very strong metrics. Heck, you need strong metrics just to get invited.

It's not basketball season if there's not at least some bickering on here.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

You seem to be suffering from selective recall. Select posters on this board constantly lamb basted WLU and Crutch for not playing tough early season games like THEIR team. There was a constant harrang about how much better WLU would be if they only scheduled tough teams early like THEIR team did.

To your second point, while it may make WLU better NOW, by the time March roles around any positive benefit is long past.

Never said Ben did or should feel pressure from a message board.

The winning % of the teams in "those years" bears out my point. It is as simple as doing the research.

The argument is not is WLU "terrified" to play anyone, the arguments are is it better for WLU's March success for them to play tough OOC opponents early in the season as other team and now Ben does OR is it better for their March success to schedule weaker early season opponents as Crutch does? My point is and always has been that early season wins and team building (extended practice) pays much more divided come March tourney time that the "benefit" WLU gets by playing, and losing to, a tough early season foe.

As for athletic big's being WLU's kryptonite, they always have been and neither Crutch OR Ben seems willing to make any effort to counter that. Their "plans" seems to be to hope they avoid them or if they can't avoid them, hope they have a bad game when they play WLU. Just my opinion, but I don't think hope is much of a plan.

You should really have a long call with Ben about scheduling more creampuffs. Rants on here don't accomplish anything. He's the boss.

Of note your other WL fans don't seem to mind playing better teams in the non-conf. The days of it just being two good teams in the Atlantic are long gone. He is scheduling more for the resume than the perceived false theory of Nov. games impacting March performance.

My selective recall is recalling reading your same complaints every time WL loses to a real team in the non-conf.

[boatcapt]

you make good points.
sometimes teams under stress in close games revert to old habits that depart from the wl style or they try to win the game by themselves. Imho playing cupcakes early. would not reveal these issues. Of course one cannot play too many tough teams.

It is a long season and other teams will likely have losses along the way. Perhaps if we convincingly defeat wesleyan and Charleston in the rematch, it will help us. Will <= 5 losses in the Atlantic and a strong February get teams in the tourney?

wl is in a strange situation from a numbers perspective. No seniors on the team and 6 new players that must get significant minutes, whether they are ready or not. But they are very talented and willing to learn.

Very true. But as they say, practice makes perfect. WLU's "style" is very unique to most players and it takes time to adjust and for it to become second nature. Given the depth WLU always plays with, it is not enough to only have your top 5 operating like a well oiled WLU basketball machine...It is just as important to have the number 9, 10 and 11 guys on your bench being able to come in and mesh seamlessly. WLU has traditionally done that through playing lesser opponents early in the season were the end of the bench players get a lot of minutes. As the season progressed, the minutes declined for these guys until the coach had a solid core of 10 players he felt comfortable platooning or mixing and matching as needed. All you have to do is look at the minute distribution for WLU players as the season progresses. Quite common for players that started the season getting many many minutes being relegated to single digits as the calendar turns.

[boatcapt]

But it did cost you that year and the committee gave you a four seed due to it. That's when Ben said in the media he wanted to beef it up. Your coach said that ... nobody else's.

I still think losing to Daemen made you better than beating Pitt-Greensburg by 80 points.

I also highly doubt Ben felt peer pressure from a stupid message board.

To your last paragraph ... you had better teams those years. It's as simple as that.

Your arguments make you sound like WL is terrified to play anybody with a pulse in the non-conference.

Daemen right now anyway is just a better team and also has WL kryptonite in that big kid. He's on par with Sleva. Losing to Daemen on the road won't kill you. Losing at home to WVW is a different story.

You seem to be suffering from selective recall. Select posters on this board constantly lamb basted WLU and Crutch for not playing tough early season games like THEIR team. There was a constant harrang about how much better WLU would be if they only scheduled tough teams early like THEIR team did.

To your second point, while it may make WLU better NOW, by the time March roles around any positive benefit is long past.

Never said Ben did or should feel pressure from a message board.

The winning % of the teams in "those years" bears out my point. It is as simple as doing the research.

The argument is not is WLU "terrified" to play anyone, the arguments are is it better for WLU's March success for them to play tough OOC opponents early in the season as other team and now Ben does OR is it better for their March success to schedule weaker early season opponents as Crutch does? My point is and always has been that early season wins and team building (extended practice) pays much more divided come March tourney time that the "benefit" WLU gets by playing, and losing to, a tough early season foe.

As for athletic big's being WLU's kryptonite, they always have been and neither Crutch OR Ben seems willing to make any effort to counter that. Their "plans" seems to be to hope they avoid them or if they can't avoid them, hope they have a bad game when they play WLU. Just my opinion, but I don't think hope is much of a plan.

[Columbuseer]

But it did cost you that year and the committee gave you a four seed due to it. That's when Ben said in the media he wanted to beef it up. Your coach said that ... nobody else's.

I still think losing to Daemen made you better than beating Pitt-Greensburg by 80 points.

I also highly doubt Ben felt peer pressure from a stupid message board.

To your last paragraph ... you had better teams those years. It's as simple as that.

Your arguments make you sound like WL is terrified to play anybody with a pulse in the non-conference.

Daemen right now anyway is just a better team and also has WL kryptonite in that big kid. He's on par with Sleva. Losing to Daemen on the road won't kill you. Losing at home to WVW is a different story.

you make good points.
sometimes teams under stress in close games revert to old habits that depart from the wl style or they try to win the game by themselves. Imho playing cupcakes early. would not reveal these issues. Of course one cannot play too many tough teams.

It is a long season and other teams will likely have losses along the way. Perhaps if we convincingly defeat wesleyan and Charleston in the rematch, it will help us. Will <= 5 losses in the Atlantic and a strong February get teams in the tourney?

wl is in a strange situation from a numbers perspective. No seniors on the team and 6 new players that must get significant minutes, whether they are ready or not. But they are very talented and willing to learn.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

That was the "argument" that some made. If I remember correctly, the major proponents of having WLU play a tougher early season schedule were fans of OTHER teams. Always struck me as odd that fans of another regional power would want us to derive what they foisted as the great post season benefit of playing tougher teams. Always felt that it was more a desire to have us lose additional games which would positively effect THEIR ability to host regionals.

If I remember correctly, the often spouted lines were:

1. WLU needs to play a tougher OOC schedule.
2. WLU needs to play early games on the road.

Folks on the board did point to the 17-18 seeding and say "SEE...YOU DON'T PLAY TOUGH LIKE US AND THIS IS WHAT YOU GET." Of course, they convienantly ignore 14, 15, 16 and 17 when we garnered top 3 seedings (and two Regional Championships) playing an easy OOC schedule.

But it did cost you that year and the committee gave you a four seed due to it. That's when Ben said in the media he wanted to beef it up. Your coach said that ... nobody else's.

I still think losing to Daemen made you better than beating Pitt-Greensburg by 80 points.

I also highly doubt Ben felt peer pressure from a stupid message board.

To your last paragraph ... you had better teams those years. It's as simple as that.

Your arguments make you sound like WL is terrified to play anybody with a pulse in the non-conference.

Daemen right now anyway is just a better team and also has WL kryptonite in that big kid. He's on par with Sleva. Losing to Daemen on the road won't kill you. Losing at home to WVW is a different story.

[boatcapt]

No disrespect to our opponents, but our losses were more due to wl not consistently playing their style. Imho some reasons:
- takes a while to unlearn how u have played for years and replace it with wl stylesome bumps in the road.

And THAT is exactly what WLU used to use the early part of their schedule each year to do! Under Crutch, the early part of the season was typically treated as an extended practice were new players "unlearned" what they had done previously, the team as a whole learned what each players strengths, weaknesses and tendencies were and Crutch learned how best to manage the team to get maximum results.

I too feel they will be better in March...Question is, will there BE a March??

We've almost used up our quota of "bumps" and we are only 10 games into the season.

[boatcapt]

Isn't the argument, however, the 2017-18 season when you guys had a 26-2 record but got seeded 4th due to the awful non-conference schedule?

Aside from Daemen, Ben isn't exactly playing a world-beater schedule here so I'm not following your point. The rest: Shaw (4-5), Mansfield (2-6), Salem (4-6), Ohio Valley (3-8), Ohio Dominican (4-8). Aside from Daemen, I'm not sure how he could have scheduled any easier?

Losing at home to a 4-7 (then 1-6) West Virginia Wesleyan is far more hurtful than losing to Daemen.

That was the "argument" that some made. If I remember correctly, the major proponents of having WLU play a tougher early season schedule were fans of OTHER teams. Always struck me as odd that fans of another regional power would want us to derive what they foisted as the great post season benefit of playing tougher teams. Always felt that it was more a desire to have us lose additional games which would positively effect THEIR ability to host regionals.

If I remember correctly, the often spouted lines were:

1. WLU needs to play a tougher OOC schedule.
2. WLU needs to play early games on the road.

Folks on the board did point to the 17-18 seeding and say "SEE...YOU DON'T PLAY TOUGH LIKE US AND THIS IS WHAT YOU GET." Of course, they convienantly ignore 14, 15, 16 and 17 when we garnered top 3 seedings (and two Regional Championships) playing an easy OOC schedule.

[Columbuseer]

[Columbuseer]