G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

[unc4life]

I wonder some times how much the move from NAIA to D2 hurt some of these schools. This now the second school in Ohio that was part of the big migration from NAIA to D2 to close it doors. I'm not sure either school had the faculties or the capital backing to support the move. Schools like Lake Erie and ODU are probably not far behind. If your a D2 school in todays world, you better have something that makes you stand out, and a heck of a fundraising department or its going to be rough sailing.

[Bballfan]

BTW - I see small private schools like Bellarmine and Queens going D1 as "swinging for the fences". I think they did real analysis on what I roughly outlined above and decided that taking a shot at making a name for themselves and becoming something of a "brand name" (albeit a smaller brand name) is their best shot in the current landscape.

Absolutely. Bellarmine though is in Kentucky and they don't really have a big D2 presence. You are in Kentucky. You are good at basketball. You have to be D1 because of men's basketball. Pretty much it. Southern Indiana also was paid a lot of money to go D1. Talking about swinging for the fences. Lindenwood going D1 is another example. The school that SHOULD do D1 is Grand Valley. But they enjoy beating up on all the other poor D2 schools in sports. Grand Valley is on par with many MAC schools. And in some sports their athletic teams would be quite competitive in the MAC.

Many of these small schools are relying on athletics to survive. They get a cut from the NCAA (what happens if that dries up) to support athletics programs. Then they give a little money to athletes to get them to come to the school. Athletics are used to boost the enrollment to survive.

[BlueBlood]

Conferences are constantly going through churn. The concern with the G-MAC is it is all private schools. Not that that is a bad thing, but quite a few private schools are experiencing significant financial difficulty. I expect to see a lot more contraction of D2 schools in the next few years. Former G-MAC Schools Alderson Braoddus, Ohio Valley, and Urbana are all defunct now. I hope not, but I fear in the next few years 2 - 3 more schools will close due to the enrollment cliff. Things are going to get worse before they get better.

Oh - I agree. There are a lot of small private schools which are being kept open mostly by sports. A nice size athletic department has 450 to 650 student athletes. Now, how many schools with 600 to 1200 full time students can you think of? Some of them only have 100 to 200 non-athletes.

I have college-age kids. Most of my kids' friends were very deliberate in wanting to go to a "brand name" school. If they don't get into their preferred in-state school, they would rather pay out of state tuition at a large school in another state or go to a larger private school. Then, there is a large group that is very budget conscious. The smart shoppers are going to get the same degree by going to CC for two years, then the local state school. Those are the two big blocks of kids I have witnessed.

Literally all of the kids we know that go to small private schools are student athletes. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Urbana and NDC and OVC and countless others are examples of athletics-dependent schools where the discounted enrollment income just isn't enough to keep the doors open. There will most-certainly be others that meet a similar fate.

BTW - I see small private schools like Bellarmine and Queens going D1 as "swinging for the fences". I think they did real analysis on what I roughly outlined above and decided that taking a shot at making a name for themselves and becoming something of a "brand name" (albeit a smaller brand name) is their best shot in the current landscape.

[Bballfan]

Conferences are constantly going through churn. The concern with the G-MAC is it is all private schools. Not that that is a bad thing, but quite a few private schools are experiencing significant financial difficulty. I expect to see a lot more contraction of D2 schools in the next few years. Former G-MAC Schools Alderson Braoddus, Ohio Valley, and Urbana are all defunct now. I hope not, but I fear in the next few years 2 - 3 more schools will close due to the enrollment cliff. Things are going to get worse before they get better.

[BlueBlood]

Those schools didn't leave for greener pastures.

Well, in the moment they sure thought they found a greener pasture. The MEC's strongest moment was the day they announced the conference. 12 schools - all with football. That coincided with the G-MAC's lowest moment - it was left with Cedarville (no football), Central State (offered very few sports), KWC, TNU (no football) and Ursuline (no men's sports). And those 5 schools were spread from Cleveland to Nashville and Western KY.

Now, the end game - yes, the G-MAC is a green pasture.

[tuffeagle]

Just saw that Notre Dame College is closing. For the old-timers, you will remember the angst when NDC and then Urbana left the G-MAC (which was still trying to get off the ground). It was a fragile time for the G-MAC and it’s crazy to think that both schools that left for perceived greener pastures are now gone. Crazy times.

Glad to see Walsh, Ursuline and LEC offering teach-out and transfer options.

Those schools didn't leave for greener pastures. They were sub-par universities to begin with. They were just trying to survive. Same with Ohio Valley University. They tried to move to NAIA. Then just closed in the middle of a school year.

So here is the GMAC schools on the endangered list:
1) Lake Erie - serious questions if they will even be open next year. School in bad financial shape.
2) Ohio Dominican - if the Catholic church pulls out (like they did at Notre Dame College and Wheeling Jesuit), they are done. Rumor is the church will.
3) Tiffin - how this school has survived this long is mystery
4) Malone - A few years ago they had to drop football in the middle of a semester. They are a very poor school. Long term viability is questionable.

The other GMAC should be okay (unless the Catholic Church also pulls out of Ursuline). But if 3 football schools are lost (quite possible), that won't be good for the conference.

[BlueBlood]

Just saw that Notre Dame College is closing. For the old-timers, you will remember the angst when NDC and then Urbana left the G-MAC (which was still trying to get off the ground). It was a fragile time for the G-MAC and it’s crazy to think that both schools that left for perceived greener pastures are now gone. Crazy times.

Glad to see Walsh, Ursuline and LEC offering teach-out and transfer options.

[BlueBlood]

Just saw that it was announced that the city of Owensboro, Ky. will serve as the hosts for the 2024 Great Midwest golf and tennis championships. It's obviously nice for KWC - but I think it also great to give TNU these short trips for their last few G-MAC championship events.

[Uindy18]

Davenport is joining the G-MAC for Men's Lacrosse, Wrestling and Stunt.

I have to admit - the G-MAC social media announcements with the Davenport logo tricked me at first.

Interesting, but cannot say I am surprised. Davenport has been rumored to the GMAC for awhile as a full member, ever since Northwood left basically.

[BlueBlood]

This gives the G-MAC 11 Men's Lacrosse teams, 7 Wrestling programs and 8 STUNT teams.

[BlueBlood]

Davenport's Men's Lacrosse and Wrestling teams had been in the GLVC

[BlueBlood]

Davenport is joining the G-MAC for Men's Lacrosse, Wrestling and Stunt.

I have to admit - the G-MAC social media announcements with the Davenport logo tricked me at first.

[Uindy18]

If I were betting on this - I think they will go D1.

From what I have heard, I believe there are a few hangups for Uindy to D1 right now.

1. Going D1 takes a big investment in resources, facilites, etc. That brings up what I call the classic NDSU problem. Do you want to move up in Division so that you are battling to stay relevant? or stay down and maintain your success where you are as a consistent winner?

2. On top of the investment issue, the Indianapolis market already has to battle Butler, IUPUI, Purdue, Indiana (and if you go further out, Evansville, Indiana State, Valpo, IPFW, etc.). Can you really ready go toe to toe with those schools when you have already carved out a nice little niche in Division II?

3. Facilites. Uindy has some great Division II facilites, but for a Division I program, the football and basketball facilites are, at best, somewhat below average. Nicoson Hall is a great venue for Division II, but is probably about as good as it is going to get without building a whole new gym. Key Stadium is serviceable for Division II, but no where near most Division I fields.

Ultimately, just a feeling here from what I have heard, but i think the athletics leadership at Uindy is intrigued by Division I, however, the board of trustees/president seem hesitant to committ the money and resources needed to make that move happen.

As an alum, I firmly believe the best place for Uindy is Division II, but that take is by no mean consistent with all other alumni. And if we are in DII long term, then the GMAC just makes too much sense. I still dream of my ideal GMAC lineup:

Cedarville

Findlay

Taylor

Lake Erie

Malone

Ohio Dominican

Tiffin

Ursuline

Walsh

Ashland

Indianapolis

Notre Dame College

Indiana Wesleyan

Marian

Saint Francis - Fort Wayne

With Northwood and Hillsdale back in a revitalized GLIAC (fueled by the adddition of Michigan and Chicago area NAIAs as well as Lewis), Thomas More and KWC in the GLVC, and Trevecca headed south.

[BlueBlood]

Guys, I will take the risk of ridicule by not elaborating on this comment. I don't think U Indy would be a good match for the GMAC, which has become my favorite conference in D1 or D2. Hit and run, sorry about that.

A UIndy that is going to stay D2 - I think they would be a great fit. They already have a few historical rivals in the conference. It would help KWC geographically (at least somewhat).

A UIndy that is eyeing D1 and views the G-MAC as a short-term fix, no thank you.

If I were betting on this - I think they will go D1.

I think the IN NAIA schools are the better long-term play.

[crazznewt]

Guys, I will take the risk of ridicule by not elaborating on this comment. I don't think U Indy would be a good match for the GMAC, which has become my favorite conference in D1 or D2. Hit and run, sorry about that.