Piaa split up...

[iupgroundhog]

Re: Piaa split up...

I think the challenge is for the lower divisions and the regions without much competition. My wife's hometown high school makes the state playoffs roughly once a decade out of District 9 which is all small town high schools. For every Clairton, Farrell, or Rochester they run face first into the wall of Our Lady of Sacred Heart or Imani Christian.

Erie Cathedral Prep doesn't bring in kids from Ohio or New York (like a Philly area private school might have kids from Jersey, Maryland, or Delaware) probably because high school football in those areas stinks - but they certainly find opportunities to poach kids from almost all of District 10. And its not because they're great students. Without naming names, I've come across several great athletes who couldn't carry on a conversation with a rock but went to Prep. That "great" education didn't help them with that rock conversation either. I just find it hard to believe that kids from rural communities 45 minutes away are suddenly seeking out an urban Catholic education when they live the rural evangelical life in the evenings and weekends.

I'm not sure how it pans out in SEPA, but in the WPIAL 9 of 11 private schools made the playoffs last year. The two who didn't were both one win from playoff participation. I'm not saying it stinks but it shows there seems to be some disparity in their ability to field competitive teams. There has to be a model from one of the 49 other states to address this.

You hit the nail squarely on the head. The dynamics of the issue varies greatly by region of the state. As Nation points out public schools in SEPA are generally large and relatively wealthy. You have your Lower Merions and Radnors but even a district in a less wealthy district like Upper Darby and other Delaware County schools have resources that you don't find throughout small town, rural PA. Private education is more prevalent in SEPA but because of the suburban wealth and size of the districts great inequities don't emerge. Furthermore, in the City of Philadelphia you have school choice to an extent within public schools i.e. you have magnet schools where students can traverse across multiple district lines to attend. It's different.

More to the point, though, in the rest of PA what I've seen is the biggest issues of sports recruitment occur in and around urban areas e.g. Pittsburgh area, Allentown-Bethlehem area and Erie area. In these areas there are ample opportunities for athletes to transfer to a reasonably close private school from a public school which might be sizable but probably isn't wealthy.

When the transferring/recruitment occurs in rural PA then it is most glaring. Historically, there are not many private opportunities throughout rural PA so it hasn't happened much but when it does happen it's out of control. It's been an issue in the Altoona/Johnstown areas and I think the biggest culprit out there is Bishop McCort and maybe one or two others I really don't remember specifically so don't quote me on that. With the emergence of of St Joseph's in State College that is extraordinarily impactful. Central PA has never had a private school presence, at least relative to athletics. The location of that new school is really hampering the State College and Bellefonte schools. Notice SCHS is mentioned in anything you read on this topic now. Are they recruiting? It's hard to prove and that's one of the problems.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: Piaa split up...

You hit the nail squarely on the head. The dynamics of the issue varies greatly by region of the state. As Nation points out public schools in SEPA are generally large and relatively wealthy. You have your Lower Merions and Radnors but even a district in a less wealthy district like Upper Darby and other Delaware County schools have resources that you don't find throughout small town, rural PA. Private education is more prevalent in SEPA but because of the suburban wealth and size of the districts great inequities don't emerge. Furthermore, in the City of Philadelphia you have school choice to an extent within public schools i.e. you have magnet schools where students can traverse across multiple district lines to attend. It's different.

More to the point, though, in the rest of PA what I've seen is the biggest issues of sports recruitment occur in and around urban areas e.g. Pittsburgh area, Allentown-Bethlehem area and Erie area. In these areas there are ample opportunities for athletes to transfer to a reasonably close private school from a public school which might be sizable but probably isn't wealthy.

When the transferring/recruitment occurs in rural PA then it is most glaring. Historically, there are not many private opportunities throughout rural PA so it hasn't happened much but when it does happen it's out of control. It's been an issue in the Altoona/Johnstown areas and I think the biggest culprit out there is Bishop McCort and maybe one or two others I really don't remember specifically so don't quote me on that. With the emergence of of St Joseph's in State College that is extraordinarily impactful. Central PA has never had a private school presence, at least relative to athletics. The location of that new school is really hampering the State College and Bellefonte schools. Notice SCHS is mentioned in anything you read on this topic now. Are they recruiting? It's hard to prove and that's one of the problems.

Similar to McDowell (Millcreek SD) in Erie. Their superintendent is the one leading the charge according to this article. Millcreek is one of the better school districts and probably the most desirable place to live in suburban Erie yet kids routinely jump ship to play for Prep. Yes, a few at Mercyhurst Prep but given the option I doubt few would choose the latter.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: Piaa split up...

That's an interesting comment. I lived on the Main Line for a long time. Radnor and Conestoga have a different set of values. You will find Radnor at the top of the state in certain sports like Tennis, Swimming, Golf, Lacrosse (Boys and Girls), Soccer. Conestoga is smaller and is actually similar to a lot of exclusive private schools in many ways and tends to emphasize participation although they do have some really strong "minor" sports. Lower Merion has always had good basketball and football. It's a little closer to the urban core. In basketball, they draw a lot from the South Ardmore community which is predominantly African-American. Kobe Bryant had family connections there. Basketball is popular. You can go to a couple playgrounds in South Ardmore on a summer evening and see future NBA players from Philadelphia. In fact, Kobe used to play on those playgrounds.

[IUPNation]

That's an interesting comment. I lived on the Main Line for a long time. Radnor and Conestoga have a different set of values. You will find Radnor at the top of the state in certain sports like Tennis, Swimming, Golf, Lacrosse (Boys and Girls), Soccer. Conestoga is smaller and is actually similar to a lot of exclusive private schools in many ways and tends to emphasize participation although they do have some really strong "minor" sports. Lower Merion has always had good basketball and football. It's a little closer to the urban core. In basketball, they draw a lot from the South Ardmore community which is predominantly African-American. Kobe Bryant had family connections there. Basketball is popular. You can go to a couple playgrounds in South Ardmore on a summer evening and see future NBA players from Philadelphia. In fact, Kobe used to play on those playgrounds.

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

I'm not sure how it pans out in SEPA, but in the WPIAL 9 of 11 private schools made the playoffs last year. The two who didn't were both one win from playoff participation. I'm not saying it stinks but it shows there seems to be some disparity in their ability to field competitive teams. There has to be a model from one of the 49 other states to address this.

I am sorry but this doesn't prove nothing. This is not the mid 90's where each class (4 back then) had 4 conferences and only 2 per conference made the playoffs for a 8 team playoff per class so many 8-2 and 7-3 teams stayed home. In the lat 90's they moved to 3 teams make it then somewhere in the early 2000's 4 teams made it creating 16 team WPIAL playoffs. The result is barley .500 teams (in some year sub .500 teams) make the playoffs. So using 9 out of 11 private schools as your argument sounds better than reality. Let's call a spade a spade, in the WPIAL it is Pittsburgh Central Catholic that is the "problem". North Catholic, Seton LaSalle, Canevin, OLSH, Serra, whoever else all look and act like your typical public schools, in the sense when they get that special group they make a good run. When they don't have a special group they are average or worse.

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

When the transferring/recruitment occurs in rural PA then it is most glaring. Historically, there are not many private opportunities throughout rural PA so it hasn't happened much but when it does happen it's out of control. It's been an issue in the Altoona/Johnstown areas and I think the biggest culprit out there is Bishop McCort and maybe one or two others I really don't remember specifically so don't quote me on that. With the emergence of of St Joseph's in State College that is extraordinarily impactful. Central PA has never had a private school presence, at least relative to athletics. The location of that new school is really hampering the State College and Bellefonte schools. Notice SCHS is mentioned in anything you read on this topic now. Are they recruiting? It's hard to prove and that's one of the problems.

I know you said you are a wrestling guy, but football wise St Joe's were never good in their 5 or 6 years and this year they dropped their football program with hopes of starting it again. Doesn't sound like they are good at recruiting if they are guilty of it. As for wrestling, why would someone want to leave a tradition rich program like Bellefonte to go to St Joe's? What is St Joe's offering to make it seem like the better deal?

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

Similar to McDowell (Millcreek SD) in Erie. Their superintendent is the one leading the charge according to this article. Millcreek is one of the better school districts and probably the most desirable place to live in suburban Erie yet kids routinely jump ship to play for Prep. Yes, a few at Mercyhurst Prep but given the option I doubt few would choose the latter.

This is one of the reasons why I hate whining from the public school crowd, not that I believe all private schools are innocent. McDowell is a good school in a good area, that has a lot going for it wealth wise. So what are they doing wrong that makes people feel the need to seek other options? If the child's needs were being met at McDowell (or any public school) then the parents would not send their kids to Prep (or other Private options).

I am the product of Catholic school. I would love to send my son to Catholic school but I can't justify the cost. So I moved to a school district that I feel my son's needs would be met. If I was unable to move to the district I did (or another district that I would find suitable) I would suck it up and send him to Catholic school. It is called freedom and I think and feel it is a great thing.

Some of the public schools need to look in the mirror and ask tough questions. Instead of taking their ball and going home, they need to ask why is x% of kids choosing other options? After the reason(s) are identified, public schools need to determine if they value the reason(s) kids are going to these other options, and see where it fits in there mission to improve that aspect of their curriculum/experience. If they don't want to improve on those aspects, shut up and move a long. If they do want to improve on those aspects, make a plan to do so and work it. I hate this take the ball home mentality. It is really out of hand in this country anymore and it is not a good lesson for the kids imo.

[IUPNation]

This is one of the reasons why I hate whining from the public school crowd, not that I believe all private schools are innocent. McDowell is a good school in a good area, that has a lot going for it wealth wise. So what are they doing wrong that makes people feel the need to seek other options? If the child's needs were being met at McDowell (or any public school) then the parents would not send their kids to Prep (or other Private options).

I am the product of Catholic school. I would love to send my son to Catholic school but I can't justify the cost. So I moved to a school district that I feel my son's needs would be met. If I was unable to move to the district I did (or another district that I would find suitable) I would suck it up and send him to Catholic school. It is called freedom and I think and feel it is a great thing.

Some of the public schools need to look in the mirror and ask tough questions. Instead of taking their ball and going home, they need to ask why is x% of kids choosing other options? After the reason(s) are identified, public schools need to determine if they value the reason(s) kids are going to these other options, and see where it fits in there mission to improve that aspect of their curriculum/experience. If they don't want to improve on those aspects, shut up and move a long. If they do want to improve on those aspects, make a plan to do so and work it. I hate this take the ball home mentality. It is really out of hand in this country anymore and it is not a good lesson for the kids imo.

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

Nation, you and I are on opposite end of the political spectrum but I feel we can agree that there is a reason why private schools are still viable options today. The thing that drives me up the wall about this public vs private debate is A) only a small % of the privates are the problem, B) Some Public schools recruit too C) nothing is stopping the public schools from improving their standing to attract kids to staying or moving into the district.

Let's face reality, even the poorest of public school districts have better facilities and support systems and technology than a great majority of the private schools, but people value other things at these private schools that allows privates to stay in business.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: Piaa split up...

Nation, you and I are on opposite end of the political spectrum but I feel we can agree that there is a reason why private schools are still viable options today. The thing that drives me up the wall about this public vs private debate is A) only a small % of the privates are the problem, B) Some Public schools recruit too C) nothing is stopping the public schools from improving their standing to attract kids to staying or moving into the district.

Let's face reality, even the poorest of public school districts have better facilities and support systems and technology than a great majority of the private schools, but people value other things at these private schools that allows privates to stay in business.

How does a public school recruit? I disagree on the facilities. The school district I lived in for a few years when I moved back to Pittsburgh is single A. Grass field. The light poles are so old they were considered unsafe and the district had to move games. The district can't afford to replace them and it appears they still haven't. Unsure what the plan is.

One thing some of the private schools can do is rent facilities. For 50 years Pittsburgh North Catholic played their games at a county park. OLSH plays at Robert Morris. Central Catholic played at Duquesne for a long time but now are at the soccer stadium at Station Square. I imagine upstart Imani Christian is renting too.

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

How does a public school recruit?

The same way a Private School does. They talk to a kid out of district and tell them to come to their school. A address is given to the kid to use, and everyone looks the other way. You really don't think that happens? I bet that happens more than a Private school offering full tuition scholarship.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: Piaa split up...

The same way a Private School does. They talk to a kid out of district and tell them to come to their school. A address is given to the kid to use, and everyone looks the other way. You really don't think that happens? I bet that happens more than a Private school offering full tuition scholarship.

I'd be shocked. At least on this side of the state.

[Mikefln]

Re: Piaa split up...

I'd be shocked. At least on this side of the state.

Last season 5 or 6 kids left Ambridge and went to public schools. It happens alright.

[IUPNation]

Nation, you and I are on opposite end of the political spectrum but I feel we can agree that there is a reason why private schools are still viable options today. The thing that drives me up the wall about this public vs private debate is A) only a small % of the privates are the problem, B) Some Public schools recruit too C) nothing is stopping the public schools from improving their standing to attract kids to staying or moving into the district.

Let's face reality, even the poorest of public school districts have better facilities and support systems and technology than a great majority of the private schools, but people value other things at these private schools that allows privates to stay in business.

[Bart]

Re: Piaa split up...

When I was in high school, athletes transferred from public to private, and private to public, based on potential playing time or a championship run at a school.