PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Ship69]

It's interesting how the perception of supporters change when the wolfs at the door. I recall not just discent but outright contempt among the masses on this board when a schools full time undergrad percentage would dip and the school would pursue part-time "adult" students or certificate seekers. It was something "real" schools just didn't do and any school that did was substandard and filled a lower place in the college continuum that THEIR institute of higher learning which would NEVER stoop to. Likewise "on-line" education...That was the purview of community colleges and for profit schools. REAL brick and mortar schools like theirs would never lower themselves to trafficking in such low level students. And a school that tried to increase or sustain enrolment through athletics? Well, THEY were CLEARLY one step away from closing their doors and selling their furniture to a local pawn shop to cover their final bills! I remember more than one post about how schools like this should be closed by what ever oversight authority managed them IMMEDIATELY!!!!

Many of our schools are admitting 70-80 percent or more of applicants. You can have legitimate discussions about how best to do things, but we're certainly not taking an elitist attitude when it comes to educating students in Pa. What is more common is that students have been taught that state schools are "fall back" schools when they're not admitted to one of the supposedly elite colleges.

[boatcapt]

Well, the problem is that once a place really commits to on-line certificate chasing by already employed millennials or some other great hope, there is a very real chance they will lose their traditional mission to others who kept working on that mission, but there is no guarantee that a specific new direction will be successful. Its a classic difficult problem. when do you move, and when do you stay put with what you got.

It's interesting how the perception of supporters change when the wolfs at the door. I recall not just discent but outright contempt among the masses on this board when a schools full time undergrad percentage would dip and the school would pursue part-time "adult" students or certificate seekers. It was something "real" schools just didn't do and any school that did was substandard and filled a lower place in the college continuum that THEIR institute of higher learning which would NEVER stoop to. Likewise "on-line" education...That was the purview of community colleges and for profit schools. REAL brick and mortar schools like theirs would never lower themselves to trafficking in such low level students. And a school that tried to increase or sustain enrolment through athletics? Well, THEY were CLEARLY one step away from closing their doors and selling their furniture to a local pawn shop to cover their final bills! I remember more than one post about how schools like this should be closed by what ever oversight authority managed them IMMEDIATELY!!!!

[Fightingscot82]

Some good news:

State House bill 1300 has been referred to the House Rules Committee for review/edits. This bill would force PASSHE to hold the line on tuition for the next two years (nothing on funding increases to cover increased expenses) and allow individual PASSHE presidents to waive the out of state tuition waiver for students in states that border Pennsylvania.

[ironmaniup]

Getting these three campuses to shift/pivot away from recruiting & enrolling 17 year olds who want to learn in person is like throwing the wheel on the Titanic once the iceberg was spotted.

Well, the problem is that once a place really commits to on-line certificate chasing by already employed millennials or some other great hope, there is a very real chance they will lose their traditional mission to others who kept working on that mission, but there is no guarantee that a specific new direction will be successful. Its a classic difficult problem. when do you move, and when do you stay put with what you got.

[Fightingscot82]

Getting these three campuses to shift/pivot away from recruiting & enrolling 17 year olds who want to learn in person is like throwing the wheel on the Titanic once the iceberg was spotted.

[Ship69]

I firmly believe that Clarion will not exist in 10 years, I cant say anything for Cal or Boro but I feel pretty confident they will be fine. Clarion is falling apart at the seems with almost no enrollment and things constantly falling apart, they cant catch a break.

With the student situation, the struggles at some of the campuses, and 20 Penn State branch campuses out there, something is going to give. I volunteered at an event at my local high school last week and talked to a couple of kids who are going to Penn State Mont Alto. Our town is 35 minutes from Ship, so stuff like this impacts us.

[SecretlySavage]

Pennsylvania Sh*t Show of Higher Education

https://triblive.com/local/regional/...-yet-to-begin/

I firmly believe that Clarion will not exist in 10 years, I cant say anything for Cal or Boro but I feel pretty confident they will be fine. Clarion is falling apart at the seems with almost no enrollment and things constantly falling apart, they cant catch a break.

[Fightingscot82]

Pennsylvania Sh*t Show of Higher Education

https://triblive.com/local/regional/...-yet-to-begin/

[boatcapt]

So this kind of analysis has been the thing that frustrated me through my entire career. Its artificial, and depends on how you define the economic unit. of course there are more costs than this. For instance, it doesn't include maintenance costs of facilities, which are much higher with a team, Having a D2 football team requires you have a certain number of teams which don't have such a huge roster or fanbase to create this payout, More athletes mean more support personnel are required - things like staff for the AD. So administrators should look at different combinations of sports, and judge the ROI from athletics as a whole. Winning is important too, since having no winning teams hurts with recruitment and fund raising. With Cheyney, regularly being the butt of programs in PASSHE hurt them in a number of ways. In PASSHE this is a problem across the systems, with doing financial analysis on programs, and departments. The wrong grouping, gives you wrong answers, and set different divisions, that should be working together, at odds with one another. It incentivizes the interests of faculty and administrators over the interests of students - and many of the requirements to do this come from Harrisburg.

College sports financial numbers are like game attendance numbers. They seem to be open to wildly different interpretations of what constitutes revenue and what constitutes cost. I think the bottom line is the cost/benefit is never as rosy as us fans want it to be nore is it as bleak as the "we should plow every dollar into academics" crowd believes sports are.

[Fightingscot82]

So this kind of analysis has been the thing that frustrated me through my entire career. Its artificial, and depends on how you define the economic unit. of course there are more costs than this. For instance, it doesn't include maintenance costs of facilities, which are much higher with a team, Having a D2 football team requires you have a certain number of teams which don't have such a huge roster or fanbase to create this payout, More athletes mean more support personnel are required - things like staff for the AD. So administrators should look at different combinations of sports, and judge the ROI from athletics as a whole. Winning is important too, since having no winning teams hurts with recruitment and fund raising. With Cheyney, regularly being the butt of programs in PASSHE hurt them in a number of ways. In PASSHE this is a problem across the systems, with doing financial analysis on programs, and departments. The wrong grouping, gives you wrong answers, and set different divisions, that should be working together, at odds with one another. It incentivizes the interests of faculty and administrators over the interests of students - and many of the requirements to do this come from Harrisburg.

I agree with what you're saying about expenses. The fact remains though that the tuition & fee revenue for these players only exists because of the sport. Yes, I imagine it's pretty close to break even if you consider all other costs to run an athletic department.

[ironmaniup]

I'll post something internal for a particular PASSHE school. In FY 19-20, they had 90 students on the football team. Here is the financial breakdown:

Revenue
Tuition & Fees Paid: $986,335
Room & Board Paid: $637,425
TOTAL REVENUE: $1,623,760

Expenses
Personnel: $498,932
Operating: $171,573
TOTAL EXPENSES: $670,506

REVENUE LESS EXPENSES: $953,254

This is a team that had a losing record. All athletic scholarship dollars in PASSHE are "real" dollars generated by sponsorships, donations, or guarantee payments from away games.

Nearly all 90 students attended this school because of football. If football leaves, nearly all 90 students will leave and take their tuition with them. For PASSHE schools, NCAA teams hit the budget the same as D3 programs. The only expenses are operating and personnel. So if PASSHE School X cuts football, they cut $670k from the budget. But then they also lose $1.6M in revenue.

So this kind of analysis has been the thing that frustrated me through my entire career. Its artificial, and depends on how you define the economic unit. of course there are more costs than this. For instance, it doesn't include maintenance costs of facilities, which are much higher with a team, Having a D2 football team requires you have a certain number of teams which don't have such a huge roster or fanbase to create this payout, More athletes mean more support personnel are required - things like staff for the AD. So administrators should look at different combinations of sports, and judge the ROI from athletics as a whole. Winning is important too, since having no winning teams hurts with recruitment and fund raising. With Cheyney, regularly being the butt of programs in PASSHE hurt them in a number of ways. In PASSHE this is a problem across the systems, with doing financial analysis on programs, and departments. The wrong grouping, gives you wrong answers, and set different divisions, that should be working together, at odds with one another. It incentivizes the interests of faculty and administrators over the interests of students - and many of the requirements to do this come from Harrisburg.

[Fightingscot82]

It's an enrollment problem added to the fact that Pa. is hardly a leader in funding higher education. Much as been made of increases to PASSHE over the past couple of years, but they usually leave out that funding had been largely stagnant since the 2008 recession and had even been cut before that. Where the state once upon a time provided all but about 30 percent of the PASSHE budgets, it now provides 30 percent or less of the budgets. PASSHE officials rejoice at getting an extra $33 million while a wealthy donor at Northwestern gives them $400 million toward a football stadium. If the state schools can continue to hold the line on tuition (and cast a wider net with lower out-of-state tuitions), continue to modify their program offerings, and wheedle a few more bucks out of the legislature they might have a fighting chance.

They'll need to hold the line on tuition and find out of state students to fill dorms and play sports. To keep enrollment steady they'll need to find ways for adults to attend.

[Ship69]

I get that academics (even business and economics faculty) are generally not businessmen nor think like them, so I don't expect them to always make the most astute business decisions. But universities also employ executive-level business managers and internal data managers. Cheyney's president is not an academic - he was an executive with Highmark. He's actually a Cal U alum too. But cutting athletics was a really short-sighted decision I've railed on before. He balanced the budget but he didn't fix the revenue shortfall that caused the budget issues. The more difficult, smarter decision would have been to create a plan to run athletics as efficiently as possible to maximize net tuition revenue. Their biggest challenge is turnover in students & coaches. There is almost no scholarship money and facilities are pretty bad, so coaches leave. Students also leave plus their target demographic is the most vulnerable to dropout. Good players transfer.

In the merger plans, both conglomerate task forces researched the possibility of cutting athletics at 2 of 3 campuses because everyone thought "Hey we're cutting millions of dollars in expenses!" But then they realized that nearly all students will transfer when you cut their program - even those within a year of graduation if they have eligibility remaining - thus making the revenue shortfall even worse.

The PASSHE schools don't have a spending problem, even though to some it appears that way. They have a revenue problem - and the revenue problem is because they have an enrollment problem. The enrollment shortfalls keep getting compared to 2010. That doesn't seem like that long ago but it was also at a significant demographic peak in high school graduates. Every PASSHE school had their highest enrollment to date in 2010. But similar to comparing life to pre-pandemic life, we have to go back to pre-peak enrollment of the late 90s and early 00s to see where everyone was relatively stable and private schools weren't using 50% coupons to lure middle class students. If the PASSHE schools could get back to their 20-25 years ago enrollment (which some say is attainable), they would be in a VERY different place financially.

It's an enrollment problem added to the fact that Pa. is hardly a leader in funding higher education. Much as been made of increases to PASSHE over the past couple of years, but they usually leave out that funding had been largely stagnant since the 2008 recession and had even been cut before that. Where the state once upon a time provided all but about 30 percent of the PASSHE budgets, it now provides 30 percent or less of the budgets. PASSHE officials rejoice at getting an extra $33 million while a wealthy donor at Northwestern gives them $400 million toward a football stadium. If the state schools can continue to hold the line on tuition (and cast a wider net with lower out-of-state tuitions), continue to modify their program offerings, and wheedle a few more bucks out of the legislature they might have a fighting chance.

[iupgroundhog]

There are other jobs-focused schools with athletics including football. The problem is that everybody knows football is expensive and that they weren't competitive. But it also helps kids pay for college and compels them to attend Cheyney instead of elsewhere - one of their challenges. The new academic orientation like you say is positive but I have to wonder how many students are choosing Cheyney for those industry partnerships or it being an HBCU with open admission.

There are also stages of development. Maybe if Cheyney achieves some basic things it will grow back to having the things we are used to in a residential state university or HBCU. I will believe that when I see it.

As far as self-redefinition, that is my hope for what IUP is doing i.e. redefining itself for the future.

[Fightingscot82]

I agree that they may have done it for budget-cutting appearances but I disagree that it was shortsighted. As I said in my previous post, the proof is in the pudding and they are succeeding where they haven't for, literally, 50 years. Results matter.

There are other jobs-focused schools with athletics including football. The problem is that everybody knows football is expensive and that they weren't competitive. But it also helps kids pay for college and compels them to attend Cheyney instead of elsewhere - one of their challenges. The new academic orientation like you say is positive but I have to wonder how many students are choosing Cheyney for those industry partnerships or it being an HBCU with open admission.