PASSHE Institutions Merging

[iupgroundhog]

I think there are some harsh truths that Greenstein can't reveal publicly. The biggest harsh truth that he can't be forthcoming about is that 5 out of 6 of the integrated schools (except Bloomsburg) are going to be smaller than they are (and keep in mind they don't have sufficient enrollment at present).

How will it work. Here's what I think. Recently, I saw something pertaining to the western triad that said 75% of current students are enrolled in a program that exists in all 3 schools. Look, with few exceptions, they evolved to be all the same.

So, if they designate a "home" campus for a program the program is going to gravitate to that campus. If you are not at the home campus does it make any sense to end up taking a majority of your major courses online? In the PASSHE world I don't think it does. In my mind, by natural selection these duplicate programs are going to die off and be eliminated. And because duplication is inefficient, I think that's inevitable. In both triads, enrollment will continue to decline. That's just a continuation of current trends. Why would it be otherwise?

In addition, nobody knows what the impact of the ambiguity of forming the schools into triads will be on applications/enrollment. I think the impact will be negative and contribute to further enrollment declines. Why would it increase? Why would it even stay the same?

I think it's clear that the schools will contract under the triad arrangement. Greenstein can't tell you that. And he's not going to.

Also paramount is the NCAA determination whether to maintain separate athletics programs. Without that, identity retention is a pipe dream.

[complaint_hopeful]

I believe they've been distracted by fighting faculty cuts at places like IUP. I do believe they're bankrolling one of the online accounts fighting integrations. They've also got the Kutztown professor's Raging Chicken site.

Indeed. They do seem to be fighting cuts. This whole process is interesting. There does seem to be opposition to the Integrations...but, it's really hard for groups to get too specific on the fight because hardly any concrete details of the Integrations have been released! It's mainly high level ideas and talk of how great things will be.

And then, like this thing hasn't been even presented and approved by the board and the 60 day comment period before the other vote...and they have consultants working on names and I'm sure there are other things happening for the Integration. What if it gets rejected? They're out all that money they paid for that work. Kind of like they know it will be approved no matter what opposition comes out.

The whole fighting cuts by saying - 'This is a person and they deserve to make money is interesting. Losing their job hurts their family.' Not how corporate America operates. Not how managers and staff (many of which are in Unions) have been treated. Some of these schools have been furloughing mangers and staff for almost a decade. Faculty were kind of untouchable at some of these schools. So I don't know. I think people have to come to grips with the fact that the schools are doing bad financially and people are going to lose jobs...but that's better than shutting down a school totally.

I'm still waiting to see actual details on the Integration before I make up my mind.

That said, I have heard some pretty crazy goals like increase enrollment by a quite sizeable number over 5 or so years, etc. for atleast one of the triads. I hope that happens. I'm just skeptical that schools that have been losing enrollment for 7-8-9 years consistently will pool together and drastically gain in size. Especially with a new entity created that has no brand reputation and the long term viability of it is shaky at best. Like the Triads could fail. It's possible. They could also wildly succeed. It's unknow. If you are a 17 year old kid, do you want to be the one that goes there and risks that?

And if say the triad does gain a considerable amount of students, I think atleast some percent will be pulled from other PASSHE schools. Especially if the Triad tries to lower the cost of education.

I'm eagerly awaiting the projections on this kind of stuff (Enrollment projections/Financial Savings projections/etc)...and it's largely from the consultants and I want to see the data that led them to those projections. Or I want to see if they just pulled wildly optimistic numbers from a hat with nothing really backing it up.

[complaint_hopeful]

Thanks for sharing that. I do believe the "PA Publics" advocacy group (I believe they are the Lock Haven community group) is right for criticizing the chancellor for cherry-picking 2010 for statistics. I was unaware that system enrollment is presently at a similar level as 2000. The kicker is that state appropriation is down over $200MM in real dollars since 2000.

To me, that's where this discussion starts and ends. IF the state kept increasing the allocations equivalent to inflation...PASSHE would be thriving. We're 47th in funding! IF you put any of the 46 school systems above us at their 2000 funding numbers, I'd guess A LOT would struggle.

That said, no matter what statistics on ROI PASSHE puts out...I doubt the funding increases enough to help. The Integrations are what is proposed and that's the path I think they'll be pushed down to try to save this. I'd be curious how the ROI was calculated too. Like was it so high because the state contribution as a percentage is so low? Ie where if the state paid more, ROI decreased?

[Fightingscot82]

Thanks for sharing that. I do believe the "PA Publics" advocacy group (I believe they are the Lock Haven community group) is right for criticizing the chancellor for cherry-picking 2010 for statistics. I was unaware that system enrollment is presently at a similar level as 2000. The kicker is that state appropriation is down over $200MM in real dollars since 2000.

[complaint_hopeful]

This has a lot of info on roi.

https://www.passhe.edu

[iupgroundhog]

I assumed the statistics being pushed by PASSHE this week were newer than 2015. If there is a new report, I'm working on finding it.

Nevertheless, I can't imagine any other line in the state budget with a ROI as high as PASSHE. As they say in the political memes, let that sink in.

[Fightingscot82]

But just yesterday you wrote that the "state released a report..." and now you can't find it?

I assumed the statistics being pushed by PASSHE this week were newer than 2015. If there is a new report, I'm working on finding it.

[Horror Child]

I can't seem to find anything newer than this 2015 report, which mirrors the statistic in PASSHE's tweet. I'll keep looking for something newer.

https://www.passhe.edu/SystemData/Do...pactReport.pdf

But just yesterday you wrote that the "state released a report..." and now you can't find it?

[Fightingscot82]

I saw the tweet. Can you share a link to the report?

I can't seem to find anything newer than this 2015 report, which mirrors the statistic in PASSHE's tweet. I'll keep looking for something newer.

https://www.passhe.edu/SystemData/Do...pactReport.pdf

[Horror Child]

The state released a report that there's a 10-for-1 return on investment for PASSHE. That's pretty significant.

I saw the tweet. Can you share a link to the report?

[Fightingscot82]

Interesting results considering that Greenstein claims the only community against it is in Lock Haven. Of course, that's the community, implying both inside and outside the university.

If faculty is so overwhelmingly against it then why haven't we seen more resistance across the board?

I believe they've been distracted by fighting faculty cuts at places like IUP. I do believe they're bankrolling one of the online accounts fighting integrations. They've also got the Kutztown professor's Raging Chicken site.

[iupgroundhog]

70% of faculty surveyed are against integrations. Only 7% believe the process has been transparent. Not good.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/ed...s/202104070102

Interesting results considering that Greenstein claims the only community against it is in Lock Haven. Of course, that's the community, implying both inside and outside the university.

If faculty is so overwhelmingly against it then why haven't we seen more resistance across the board?

[Fightingscot82]

70% of faculty surveyed are against integrations. Only 7% believe the process has been transparent. Not good.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/ed...s/202104070102

[Fightingscot82]

I don't disagree. I'm referring more to the kids in 12th grade right now. Those are the kids deciding not to come to our schools in the volume they used to do so. As we keep saying, as the money gets closer, we'll continue to lose more and more of them to the more 'name' schools.

For $2k more they can attend a school with more cache or a bigger name. Plus little Kaitlyn from Blairsville could never afford to attend private school until college. BFE private liberal arts college is "throwing" money at her and IUP "only" offered $2,500. That perception of scholarship size works for a lot of people. You don't need to be a great student to qualify for automatic discounts marketed as "scholarships" from even the more elite private schools. You can be an average student (3.0, 1000 SAT) and get half off tuition at W&J, which is a top 100 liberal arts college. At IUP you might get $500 off for that application.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

[/I]

I agree with that -- to an extent.

I was referring more to the actual recruitment of students -- and the mindset of today's highly sought after kids. In the mind of an 18-year-old, most want the name. If the money is fairly close, often times they can convince Mom and Dad to pay the extra couple bucks. Twenty-some years ago I'd have much rather said I went to Pitt than IUP.

It has been my experience that the university name on the diploma doesn't make a lot of difference in decision-making for work assignments. I have been fortunate to work on programs valued at hundreds of $ millions and one in excess of $ billion. The leadership staff reporting to me had degrees from several Ivy League universities, Notre Dame, several PA universities, and institutions from all over the world. I can honestly say that my IUP and Army experiences presented me with tremendous opportunities to lead and develop others. I always have been pleased to see upcoming employees from PASSHE schools because they usually have an exceptional work ethic.[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree. I'm referring more to the kids in 12th grade right now. Those are the kids deciding not to come to our schools in the volume they used to do so. As we keep saying, as the money gets closer, we'll continue to lose more and more of them to the more 'name' schools.