PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

No doubt. Increase state funding and this is a moot point.

A Senator just brought up that he thinks the decisions are already made because they're moving forward without waiting for the NCAA and Accredidation results.

He has a good point. I feel like some of the NCAA and Accredidation results will determine how this is implemented. Like if there is 1 budget and 1 of each Admin department, I think that there will be some pretty serious concerns from the NCAA about competitive balance with all 3 schools being in the same Conference and Division. I feel like they may want some of the Depts and budgets separated.

Accreditation was given a provisional approval. This is why "hub" campuses were decided - and based solely on newness of accreditation (probably to buy time for the future). The NCAA is a big wild card because athletes are roughly 10% of enrollment at PASSHE schools. Consolidation of athletics will result in lost enrollment and make the plans insolvent.

[complaint_hopeful]

He's right though about Cheyney. HOWEVER...Cheyney was only able to do that because West Chester was so close they could easily take on the extra administrative work.

This plan can be avoided if the legislature returns the $220+MM they took away a decade ago. If all things stayed the same, that would reduce cost to students by roughly $2,200 each.

The more I listen to these hearings, I think they waited way too long for this and these schools are basically done...but, they don't want to shut them down. They want to slap a bunch of PR on it about how they will thrive. Well to grow, students have to come from somewhere. Where?

I think they're trying to move way too quick on this and the NCAA and Accredidation could stop this.

Bottom line is that if the state funding doesn't increase, these schools will die. And probably more than just the Triads eventually. I could see 3-4 going under in the next 5 years.

[complaint_hopeful]

He's right though about Cheyney. HOWEVER...Cheyney was only able to do that because West Chester was so close they could easily take on the extra administrative work.

This plan can be avoided if the legislature returns the $220+MM they took away a decade ago. If all things stayed the same, that would reduce cost to students by roughly $2,200 each.

No doubt. Increase state funding and this is a moot point.

A Senator just brought up that he thinks the decisions are already made because they're moving forward without waiting for the NCAA and Accredidation results.

He has a good point. I feel like some of the NCAA and Accredidation results will determine how this is implemented. Like if there is 1 budget and 1 of each Admin department, I think that there will be some pretty serious concerns from the NCAA about competitive balance with all 3 schools being in the same Conference and Division. I feel like they may want some of the Depts and budgets separated.

[Fightingscot82]

Now Greenstein and the University of Chaney President are speaking. Chaney talked about what they did there. Greenstein is saying that redesign is learning from Chaney in regards to the financial path they took. ie Descent into financial distress is predictable.

He feels like what happened at Chaney could be a model for schools with niche programs. But, it's more a niche thing that they do. The NE and West are driving regional economies. So what worked at Chaney wouldn't work there.

He talked about how bleak the finances are and how the remaining reserves will go quick if we do nothing.

Now the Clarion President is speaking. She's basically reading a press release. Told stories of a couple grads from 2 schools. She's basically just talking about why the 3 schools are important.

He's right though about Cheyney. HOWEVER...Cheyney was only able to do that because West Chester was so close they could easily take on the extra administrative work.

This plan can be avoided if the legislature returns the $220+MM they took away a decade ago. If all things stayed the same, that would reduce cost to students by roughly $2,200 each.

[complaint_hopeful]

In today's Post-Gazette: https://www.post-gazette.com/news/ed...s/202105130143

If you can't read it without subscribing, copy the link into an incognito browser window.

It all comes down to the state funding. This discussion starts and ends with that.

[complaint_hopeful]

Clarion Pres just said that they see other schools trying to steal our students because of the uncertainty.

[complaint_hopeful]

From @statesystem Twitter:
"We will grow not shrink; we will not merely survive but we will thrive in future generations." President Pehrsson (@Edinboro @clarionu) said in testimony at #PASenate Democratic Caucus Policy Committee Hearing. Learn more about university integrations: http://passhe.edu/integrations

[Fightingscot82]

In today's Post-Gazette: https://www.post-gazette.com/news/ed...s/202105130143

If you can't read it without subscribing, copy the link into an incognito browser window.

[complaint_hopeful]

Now Greenstein and the University of Chaney President are speaking. Chaney talked about what they did there. Greenstein is saying that redesign is learning from Chaney in regards to the financial path they took. ie Descent into financial distress is predictable.

He feels like what happened at Chaney could be a model for schools with niche programs. But, it's more a niche thing that they do. The NE and West are driving regional economies. So what worked at Chaney wouldn't work there.

He talked about how bleak the finances are and how the remaining reserves will go quick if we do nothing.

Now the Clarion President is speaking. She's basically reading a press release. Told stories of a couple grads from 2 schools. She's basically just talking about why the 3 schools are important.

[complaint_hopeful]

Some of the Unions are talking to lawmakers now:

@PASTATEDEMS Twitter
"It seems like they want to ram it through and figure it out later." Ross Brumagin, president of AFSCME Local 2329, speaks about the PASSHE Plan to consolidate schools and how it will affect workers. Watch our #SenDemPolicy Committee hearing http://SenatorMuth.com/policy/

[IUPNation]

That's a really, really stupid move. More kids will die.

[ironmaniup]

I am not saying they should get support services or receive extra help. I am for giving a high school graduate a chance, not to base the future on an IQ test. Let every school make it's own decisions based on supply and demand. I doubt they would find enough students with a superior IQs over 120 typical of a person with a doctoral degree If the students you mention getting tested by other students are still in school, that would show they can do the work. Perhaps students in the psych class should be testing each other. They may find that most of their peers are in the 90-109 range. Most of the 85 scores would have been weeded out of academics based on interest and performance, and into vocational education in high school, if they even earned a high school diploma. .

As for the NFL, they measure many variables that may not reflect on field performance. I don't agree with deciding someone's future by an IQ test. Should we test all children before school to tell tell them what job they will have in the future. Self-fulfilling prophesy. Water finds it's own level, and life shatters dreams, that's how it should be. [TABLE="class: tablesaw tablesaw-swipe"]

We don't disagree on giving a highschool graduate a chance, The point I was making is that we are seeing a greater percentage of the ~90 or lower IQ levels coming. These students, when considered as a group, bring a significantly larger number of problems. The intangibles such students need to make it through any moderately rigorous program are substantial. As a group they also bring in many other problems. ( that's the other part of increasing enrollment, there seems to be more personal/social problems as well. ) I'd hope, as you say the Highschool would sort these students out and put them on better paths where they could be successful, since being misplaced is almost cruel to them. Its great inspiration to tell people you can be what ever you want as long as you work hard enough. But its wrong to not give someone a good Idea of what Hard enough really means.

[IUPNation]

https://www.iup.edu/admissions/alumni-volunteers/

[Bart]

Learning disabilities, and intellectual disabilities are not the same thing. For the vast majority of people the IQ scores are predictive of academic success. The NFL combine even has a test to judge intellect. I'll wager that there are not any MDs who test significantly below average (say around 85). If a student has some reason that their test scores are not predictive, highschool classes should sort that out. Unfortunately some schools don't do a great job at this, and rate themselves based on how many students they get into college rather than giving the students good advice for the future. ,

So what's the big deal ? why not give everyone a chance ?

Because it leads to many problems for the student. foremost Cost, since these students often require 30% more courses. then there's the emotional pain and frustration they experience, which leads to other problems. For the university, the support required for these students is significant, and takes the focus off the successful students, and worse, those average students that work hard and could achieve much more (these are the ones you are really talking about). Sadly, there is also the moral hazard for the university, as keeping these students enrolled improves the short term revenue, helps important comparative metrics like first year retention rate, and its justified by the same arguments you are making, despite knowing the students chance to turn things around are extremely low.

Long term, it hurts the university, with more costs for all the support, which impacts the successful students in a negative way as well. I'm sure this effects the way the state chooses to fund the universities, as well as enrollment questions. There are absolutely those students that unexpectedly turn things around, It feels great when you can help make this happen, but basing a universities policy on those few examples is like basing your retirement on lottery tickets.

I am not saying they should get support services or receive extra help. I am for giving a high school graduate a chance, not to base the future on an IQ test. Let every school make it's own decisions based on supply and demand. I doubt they would find enough students with a superior IQs over 120 typical of a person with a doctoral degree If the students you mention getting tested by other students are still in school, that would show they can do the work. Perhaps students in the psych class should be testing each other. They may find that most of their peers are in the 90-109 range. Most of the 85 scores would have been weeded out of academics based on interest and performance, and into vocational education in high school, if they even earned a high school diploma. .

As for the NFL, they measure many variables that may not reflect on field performance. I don't agree with deciding someone's future by an IQ test. Should we test all children before school to tell tell them what job they will have in the future. Self-fulfilling prophesy. Water finds it's own level, and life shatters dreams, that's how it should be.

[ironmaniup]

There are successful MDs with average IQs. I know because I have tested some. Learning disabilities can also affect scores. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both had learning disabilities; Jobs dropped out of school. The concept of intelligence being a single ability accurately represented by a single score such as IQ has been seriously challenged by research. We know the brain isn't fully developed until age 25, so writing off young adults as not college material may be inaccurate. Let the classroom make the decision, instead of IQ tests that can be like reading tea leaves.

Learning disabilities, and intellectual disabilities are not the same thing. For the vast majority of people the IQ scores are predictive of academic success. The NFL combine even has a test to judge intellect. I'll wager that there are not any MDs who test significantly below average (say around 85). If a student has some reason that their test scores are not predictive, highschool classes should sort that out. Unfortunately some schools don't do a great job at this, and rate themselves based on how many students they get into college rather than giving the students good advice for the future. ,

So what's the big deal ? why not give everyone a chance ?

Because it leads to many problems for the student. foremost Cost, since these students often require 30% more courses. then there's the emotional pain and frustration they experience, which leads to other problems. For the university, the support required for these students is significant, and takes the focus off the successful students, and worse, those average students that work hard and could achieve much more (these are the ones you are really talking about). Sadly, there is also the moral hazard for the university, as keeping these students enrolled improves the short term revenue, helps important comparative metrics like first year retention rate, and its justified by the same arguments you are making, despite knowing the students chance to turn things around are extremely low.

Long term, it hurts the university, with more costs for all the support, which impacts the successful students in a negative way as well. I'm sure this effects the way the state chooses to fund the universities, as well as enrollment questions. There are absolutely those students that unexpectedly turn things around, It feels great when you can help make this happen, but basing a universities policy on those few examples is like basing your retirement on lottery tickets.