PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Ram040506]

Why would you even ask a question like that?! No one has ANY clue as to what will happen. Just wait and see like everyone else...

Took ya 3 weeks to find that one? May I remind you that this is a message board...seems like you might need a new hobby perhaps with all this time on your hands?

[WarriorVoice]

But they still would be separate entities for athletics? Slippery Scots? Clarion Golden Vulcans?

Why would you even ask a question like that?! No one has ANY clue as to what will happen. Just wait and see like everyone else...

[Fightingscot82]

Figure out a way, that tuition, room, board and fees does not exceed $15,000. Drop faculty or personnel if you have to, negotiate a contract with APSCUF where professors now teach 36 hours instead of 12, like regular people work 40 hours a week. At $15k, I believe a full need student with pell, state grant, and one loan can go to school. Too many kids have double loans totalling $9k per year. With a lower cost, you have a greater chance to increase the population in the schools for people to more easily afford. Not sure if this would work, because I don't know the ultimate price paid by personnel etc. The PASSHE has priced itself out of the market. And, Big Indian, you could very well be right, schools may need to be cut. Just some thoughts.

You're on the right track. There needs to be a predetermined all-in cost but the only thing that can drive down costs is a large increase in the state's commitment. The state's divestment coupled with when millennials expected dorms that resembled mom & dad's house blew up costs. I believe that the Aldi principle could save them: be much cheaper than the competition long enough and people will have a hard time justifying paying much more for a similar product.

Also, I criticize the faculty as much as anyone but they're not teachers. They're subject matter experts. To think that the 12 hours a week they spend in a classroom defines their job is like assuming a minister only works the 60-90 minutes the church service lasts each Sunday. For PASSHE, there are requirements for open office hours, departmental and university committee meetings, etc. They also must publish or present research if they want to move up in rank. It's a good gig but it's not limited to classroom time.

All 14 schools can survive if they can right size staffing to current enrollment. A 5,000 student school isn't a failing one if 4,500-5,500 can be sustained without finishing the FY in the red. Schools also don't need to be 10,000 strong. Research actually supports smaller, residential campuses for high school graduates.

[Dirty Harry]

From the outside, there is no doubt the PASSHE needs to cut at least 2-3 schools (maybe more). Gone. Ghosts. That said, you're getting in to a ton of politics, red tape, etc.

Figure out a way, that tuition, room, board and fees does not exceed $15,000. Drop faculty or personnel if you have to, negotiate a contract with APSCUF where professors now teach 36 hours instead of 12, like regular people work 40 hours a week. At $15k, I believe a full need student with pell, state grant, and one loan can go to school. Too many kids have double loans totalling $9k per year. With a lower cost, you have a greater chance to increase the population in the schools for people to more easily afford. Not sure if this would work, because I don't know the ultimate price paid by personnel etc. The PASSHE has priced itself out of the market. And, Big Indian, you could very well be right, schools may need to be cut. Just some thoughts.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Finances drive everything in some form or fashon. The real question is can the PASSHE "efficiency their way out" of a declining population of school age kids? PASSHE as a system needs x hundred thousand students spread across PA to operate effectively. Problem is, there just aren't x hundred thousand students anymore and the number of students is projected to continue to decline. The situation screams for "right sizing" but no one, local citizen, alumni, school president or local legislator, thinks that THEIR school needs to be "right sized." So you are stuck with a circular firing squad of sorts were each school/alumni/legislator tries to protect their school while pointing up the deficiencies of their neighbor. This was supposed to be addressed by giving the PASSHE BOG authority to make sweeping changes based on system need and not individual school wants. But in true legislative fashon, the legislature effective handcuffed the BOG before they even began by removing the two strongest programs for the discussion completely and then making it so that the BOG could not close/merge ANY schools. Took a very difficult task and made it almost impossible.

Bottom line shouldn't be does the PASSHE WANT 14 state schools...bottom line should be given the current # of students and future student projections, how many state schools can the PASSHE AFFORD. IMHO, that seems to be some number signifigantly below were they are now.

From the outside, there is no doubt the PASSHE needs to cut at least 2-3 schools (maybe more). Gone. Ghosts. That said, you're getting in to a ton of politics, red tape, etc.

[boatcapt]

I think its in their best interest to welcome shared administrative services. Finances are driving this - not a lack of identity. Systemwide enrollment has declined but not to far off from where the demographic decline has left their target population. If they can find a way to control costs and stabilize enrollment full on mergers will stop being talked about. Regional master's universities like PASSHE (IUP is more regional master's than national university) are all struggling from the same challenges related to population shifts.

Finances drive everything in some form or fashon. The real question is can the PASSHE "efficiency their way out" of a declining population of school age kids? PASSHE as a system needs x hundred thousand students spread across PA to operate effectively. Problem is, there just aren't x hundred thousand students anymore and the number of students is projected to continue to decline. The situation screams for "right sizing" but no one, local citizen, alumni, school president or local legislator, thinks that THEIR school needs to be "right sized." So you are stuck with a circular firing squad of sorts were each school/alumni/legislator tries to protect their school while pointing up the deficiencies of their neighbor. This was supposed to be addressed by giving the PASSHE BOG authority to make sweeping changes based on system need and not individual school wants. But in true legislative fashon, the legislature effective handcuffed the BOG before they even began by removing the two strongest programs for the discussion completely and then making it so that the BOG could not close/merge ANY schools. Took a very difficult task and made it almost impossible.

Bottom line shouldn't be does the PASSHE WANT 14 state schools...bottom line should be given the current # of students and future student projections, how many state schools can the PASSHE AFFORD. IMHO, that seems to be some number signifigantly below were they are now.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

And they aren't the only ones that throw scholarship money at out of state students. Practically every top state university is offering massive scholarships to quality students. For example, years ago, I remember WVU offering in-state tuition rates (and better) to several of my friends. How does a school like CalU compete against that?

They don't. Spend a month in Morgantown or in Angelo's Mon Valley. It's a real, real tough sell for Cal. If the money is close ... the 'name' schools are going to win most nights.

[CardinalAlum]

Bama definitely has a long term strategy to recruit kids via full or nearly full scholarships to students from the North and possibly other parts of the country. Seems like they are eyeing a Notre Dame-like National following in 20 years.

And they aren't the only ones that throw scholarship money at out of state students. Practically every top state university is offering massive scholarships to quality students. For example, years ago, I remember WVU offering in-state tuition rates (and better) to several of my friends. How does a school like CalU compete against that?

[iupgroundhog]

I didn't say anything about the bar scene. I said the school is lively and that goes a long way in recruitment. Visit WCU and visit Clarion, Lock Haven, Mansfield ... no comparison if you are looking for a lively scene and not the equivalent of Deliverance.

I should have replied to Wcball00's post. I think for a lot of kids it's really choosing between campus life at WCU vs. Ursinus or Eastern College and the like. So, yes, I agree. It's a lively atmosphere.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

A lot of the enrollment increase WCU has seen is a result of a lively bar scene in downtown West Chester.

Uh, no.

Not that it isn't a factor but it would be way down the list.

First of all, the drinking age in PA is 21. Most of the students can't legally drink in bars. Secondly, it's expensive in most cases. Downtown West Chester is frequented by adults from the area more than students. I think it gives parents nice places to go to when they come to visit, though. BTW, I love West Chester.

In some ways, I am not too sure about WCU. I used to go to the WCU library quite a bit. For some reference books I needed the libraries at Temple and WCU had them (I didn't want to pay $400 to buy them). So, I would go to WCU. Once there was a detour around the main route into campus and I had to go down a side street populated by student housing. It was a Thursday or Friday afternoon. So, I've been to a lot of college campuses and in my youth I was no lightweight partier. I have never seen the kind of debauchery at a college as on that West Chester street. I sorta doubt their parents would approve of it. So, it is definitely a party atmosphere. But it's not because of the downtown area.

I think Indiana has a vibrant scene on Philly Street and it's actually more accessible to students than in WC. IUP has a lot of students from SE PA but for a lot of people their takeaway from Indiana is "cow town." It's all relative.

I didn't say anything about the bar scene. I said the school is lively and that goes a long way in recruitment. Visit WCU and visit Clarion, Lock Haven, Mansfield ... no comparison if you are looking for a lively scene and not the equivalent of Deliverance.

[iupgroundhog]

No doubt. When picking a 'state school' much more goes in to it than academics. West Chester offers a very lively atmosphere. Urban. Tons to do. Compare that to a Lock Haven or Clarion, etc.

A lot of the enrollment increase WCU has seen is a result of a lively bar scene in downtown West Chester.

Uh, no.

Not that it isn't a factor but it would be way down the list.

First of all, the drinking age in PA is 21. Most of the students can't legally drink in bars. Secondly, it's expensive in most cases. Downtown West Chester is frequented by adults from the area more than students. I think it gives parents nice places to go to when they come to visit, though. BTW, I love West Chester.

In some ways, I am not too sure about WCU. I used to go to the WCU library quite a bit. For some reference books I needed the libraries at Temple and WCU had them (I didn't want to pay $400 to buy them). So, I would go to WCU. Once there was a detour around the main route into campus and I had to go down a side street populated by student housing. It was a Thursday or Friday afternoon. So, I've been to a lot of college campuses and in my youth I was no lightweight partier. I have never seen the kind of debauchery at a college as on that West Chester street. I sorta doubt their parents would approve of it. So, it is definitely a party atmosphere. But it's not because of the downtown area.

I think Indiana has a vibrant scene on Philly Street and it's actually more accessible to students than in WC. IUP has a lot of students from SE PA but for a lot of people their takeaway from Indiana is "cow town." It's all relative.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Academics aside, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 30+ bars in downtown WC play a significant role.

No doubt. When picking a 'state school' much more goes in to it than academics. West Chester offers a very lively atmosphere. Urban. Tons to do. Compare that to a Lock Haven or Clarion, etc.

[Wcball00]

I have a question and 2 points to throw out there.

==West Chester Model
Matt or anyone else that knows,
What has West Chester done in the last 9 years that led to their 22% increase in enrollment? Did they add new majors, add a grad program, reduce cost significantly, or developed a relationship with another school where part of program is at WC and part is at another school.

Academics aside, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 30+ bars in downtown WC play a significant role.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Bama definitely has a long term strategy to recruit kids via full or nearly full scholarships to students from the North and possibly other parts of the country. Seems like they are eyeing a Notre Dame-like National following in 20 years.

It's a beautiful campus. The ladies are a little different down there, too.

[IUPTrackMan]

My niece, when she started the search process a couple years ago, put Michigan State and UCLA on her list. She went to high school in the Pittsburgh suburbs.

Alabama recruits students from all over the country (not just football players), and I've heard that some of their marketing pieces have Nick Saban on the cover. I'd imagine some other schools do similar things to recruit students.

Bama definitely has a long term strategy to recruit kids via full or nearly full scholarships to students from the North and possibly other parts of the country. Seems like they are eyeing a Notre Dame-like National following in 20 years.