Northwood Exit and Expansion Discussion

[Stea1th]

Now that Northwood is in, I would think that any MI private school in the southern part of the state (like a Madonna) would be at least as likely to look to the G-MAC as the GLIAC.

Agree. With Hillsdale and Northwood in the GMAC, there is every reason to believe that Davenport is a future possibility and that IF private MI NAIAs want to go D2, they will strongly consider the GMAC.

[Uindy18]

Northwood didn't make the decision to move to the GMAC on the spur of the moment. They decided it was the best thing to do for them. While it may not make sense to a lot of people, they probably have knowledge of other upcoming GMAC plans.

True, it is also true that these conference changes can change rapidly, and who knows what could happen by the time NU joins in 2022? I believe the GMAC had announced additions of Georgetown, UVA-Wise, and Cumberlands which all fell through when they did not get NCAA approval. GLVC did a similar thing with Benedictine in Chicago, but with the school pulling the plug, not the NCAA.

Nothing against Northwood, but if the GLIAC were to stabilize with a more balanced group of public/private schools over the next 5 years (or over the next year), I could seem them swing back to the GLIAC at some point.

End of the day, geographic outliers tend to find more comfortable conference situations over time. Most of the GMAC is a great example of that.

[KleShreen]

Sounds like a good path forward, but I'm not holding my breath. I do find it interesting that SVSU gets left out for much of these discussions. So GV, FSU, WSU, SVSU can all be more or less in the same boat. Davenport is also a bit of an odd duck. They are private but I think they have a +7k student count (and growing), so I wouldn't consider them small... though not large.

I know in the past, there hasn't been much support for athletics at SVSU from the top of the food chain. I believe that left when Gilbertson hit the trails, though. I think the new president is much more supportive of SVSU athletics.

[UFOILERFAN]

I agree, the GLIAC needs more membership as quickly as they can get it. I wonder if they could snap their fingers and add all four Michigan NAIAs, would that convince Northwood to call off the GMAC move? I think it could help them retain Davenport, make the conference more balanced, and maybe make up with Northwood. All of which I would want regardless of what GV and FSU decide to do.

Northwood didn't make the decision to move to the GMAC on the spur of the moment. They decided it was the best thing to do for them. While it may not make sense to a lot of people, they probably have knowledge of other upcoming GMAC plans.

[Redwing]

I agree, the GLIAC needs more membership as quickly as they can get it. I wonder if they could snap their fingers and add all four Michigan NAIAs, would that convince Northwood to call off the GMAC move? I think it could help them retain Davenport, make the conference more balanced, and maybe make up with Northwood. All of which I would want regardless of what GV and FSU decide to do.

Sounds like a good path forward, but I'm not holding my breath. I do find it interesting that SVSU gets left out for much of these discussions. So GV, FSU, WSU, SVSU can all be more or less in the same boat. Davenport is also a bit of an odd duck. They are private but I think they have a +7k student count (and growing), so I wouldn't consider them small... though not large.

[Uindy18]

It's a tough issue, but I would ask why the GLIAC would wait for any other team to leave? Go after them YESTERDAY. If the reason is because FSU and GV are in the conference and that is chasing away new (small school) members, well, one should just resign oneself that the GLIAC is doomed. The GLIAC needs new football members now, not AFTER another institution leaves.

It's a dream, but it's too bad that Indy doesn't want to shift to the GLIAC. Admittedly, it would indeed be a tough, if not impossible sell.

And with the way things are trending, I think a departure from the GLIAC is in the cards sooner than later.

I agree, the GLIAC needs more membership as quickly as they can get it. I wonder if they could snap their fingers and add all four Michigan NAIAs, would that convince Northwood to call off the GMAC move? I think it could help them retain Davenport, make the conference more balanced, and maybe make up with Northwood. All of which I would want regardless of what GV and FSU decide to do.

[BlueBlood]

From an outsiders view - I have always through that GV, Wayne St. and FSU kind of seem like DI MAC schools playing in DII. I'm sure that a MI local can tell me that there is a huge difference in the way the schools were set up years ago or function institutionally now, but that's just what I've always kind of thought from the outside looking in. Conversely, some of the private schools (basically the ones that left) seem set up very similar to DIII schools - they just have the ability to offer scholarships. On the surface, that appears to be a huge institutional (not just sports) difference. And add to that the OH / MI divide, and I don't think anyone should be too surprised by the split. To me, Northwood is the only huge surprise - I thought that geography would be enough to keep them in the GLIAC despite institutional differences. Now that Northwood is in, I would think that any MI private school in the southern part of the state (like a Madonna) would be at least as likely to look to the G-MAC as the GLIAC.

[Redwing]

Just for the sake of discussion, if GV and Ferris both decide to move up to FCS, how much more likely does that make the GLIAC pursuit of the Michigan NAIA football schools? I would think they are considering them at least a little at this point, but would that not be a big motivator in trying to get that done? I realize that the GLIAC simply cannot go pick up an NAIA school like going to the grocery store, but I have to think they could talk one of the 4 in Michigan to make the jump.

It's a tough issue, but I would ask why the GLIAC would wait for any other team to leave? Go after them YESTERDAY. If the reason is because FSU and GV are in the conference and that is chasing away new (small school) members, well, one should just resign oneself that the GLIAC is doomed. The GLIAC needs new football members now, not AFTER another institution leaves.

It's a dream, but it's too bad that Indy doesn't want to shift to the GLIAC. Admittedly, it would indeed be a tough, if not impossible sell.

And with the way things are trending, I think a departure from the GLIAC is in the cards sooner than later.

[Uindy18]

Just for the sake of discussion, if GV and Ferris both decide to move up to FCS, how much more likely does that make the GLIAC pursuit of the Michigan NAIA football schools? I would think they are considering them at least a little at this point, but would that not be a big motivator in trying to get that done? I realize that the GLIAC simply cannot go pick up an NAIA school like going to the grocery store, but I have to think they could talk one of the 4 in Michigan to make the jump.

[mtsax305]

I don't get a say, but my preferred mode would be to let it ride for another couple of years. Cobbling football schedules together will have some difficulty, but the rest of the league and its sports are on decent footing. I'd like to see what happens how/when the P5 split off and the NCAA has to either dissolve or reorganize. Once the P5 are gone, THEN we could adjust our positioning and actually have a fighting to chance to derive some value out of the change and actually justify the expense involved...

I'm with Irish on this one. Let the P5 go have their fun.

In terms of positioning within the divisions, I've always felt that the football playing members of the GLIAC are too big for D2, but would get pounced in the existing D1. Assuming the G5, FCS, and non-football conferences merge to form a new D1, I would love to see the football schools create a Michigan conference with Eastern, Western, and Central while the non-football schools could either remain in D2 or join the Horizon.

One can dream, I guess.

[KleShreen]

i'm gonna stop you right there and post the scoring five for each team from their most recent race, 2021 nationals for NAU and 2019 nationals for GV:

NAU
NAME, PLACE TIME POINTS
Nico Young, 4th 29:58 3
Blaise Ferro, 6th 30:02 5
Abdihamid Nur, 7th 30:05 6
Luis Grijalva, 9th 30:10 8
Brodey Hastey, 44th 30:50 38

GV
same format
Tanner Chada, 24th 30:20 20
Noah Steffen, 27th 30:28 23
Ben Zaremba, 34th 30:38 27
Andrew Hylen, 51st 31:00 42
Jesse Becker, 76th 31:19 65

You aren't competing with NAU if your 5th man is scoring more than their entire team.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. NAU is dominating the men's XC in D1. They don't have a women's team. GV's women have been dominating XC in D2. There really is no dominant force in women's D1 XC. The GV women could easily take that spot. Men's XC, the GV men won the title in 2018. They are always near the top of the standings. They could easily become championship contenders and contend regularly.

I'm just pointing out that XC is a sport where really any school can win titles in D1. It's not normally limited to only power conference schools or the D1 blue bloods like Alabama and Michigan and Stanford and UCLA and North Carolina and whatnot, as most other sports are. Anyone can win national titles in D1 XC.

[Mk63NuclearBomb]

If D1 were to happen, I would fully expect XC to compete for D1 national titles. Right now, Northern Arizona is the most dominant XC program in the country. GV can compete with that.

i'm gonna stop you right there and post the scoring five for each team from their most recent race, 2021 nationals for NAU and 2019 nationals for GV:

NAU
NAME, PLACE TIME POINTS
Nico Young, 4th 29:58 3
Blaise Ferro, 6th 30:02 5
Abdihamid Nur, 7th 30:05 6
Luis Grijalva, 9th 30:10 8
Brodey Hastey, 44th 30:50 38

GV
same format
Tanner Chada, 24th 30:20 20
Noah Steffen, 27th 30:28 23
Ben Zaremba, 34th 30:38 27
Andrew Hylen, 51st 31:00 42
Jesse Becker, 76th 31:19 65

You aren't competing with NAU if your 5th man is scoring more than their entire team.

[Redwing]

I'm not saying every player on every team is on a full ride. But in D1, the scholarship students are on full rides, not partial like in D2. The 36 scholarships for football in D2 are split up among 90 guys (for example). The 85 scholarships in D1 are 85 full rides to 85 players. The same goes for the other sports. There might be 16 players on a D1 basketball team, but 13 of them are on full rides and the other 3 are non-scholarship. So in D2, the kickass football player might be getting a scholarship offer of in-state tuition (if from out of state) and paying for half their tuition (for example), while their MAC offer would be a full ride. So they'll almost always take the MAC offer. Again, that's just an example. I'm guessing most D2 schools would offer a full scholarship to someone who is holding a D1 offer, as well, but not always.

I get the headcount sports.. but Women's soccer, track, etc.. I'm pretty sure it's all over the place. I'm still not clear on FCS football (See below)I got this after I originally posted. FCS does indeed have PARTIAL scholarships. Us older guys aren't always wrong eh scooter? LOL

FCS schools are limited to financial assistance amounting to a maximum of 63 full scholarships, although some conferences voluntarily place further restrictions on athletic aid. The NCAA classifies FBS football as a "head-count" sport, meaning that each player receiving any athletically-related aid from the school counts fully against the 85-player limit. By contrast, FCS football is classified as an "equivalency" sport, which means that scholarship aid is limited to the equivalent of a specified number of full scholarships. In turn, this means that FCS schools can freely grant partial scholarships, but are also limited to a total of 85 players receiving assistance. Another NCAA rule mandates that any multi-sport athlete who plays football and receives any athletic aid is counted against the football limit, with an exception for players in non-scholarship FCS programs who receive aid in another sport.

I hope this helps to set us all straight on this Scholly thing. So yes, FCS does allow for partials, but limits the actual players that can receive them to 85/team.

[KleShreen]

I don't believe that D! offers are all full ride. Even in football, there are 85 equiv.. and most teams have more than that on the team. As for the other sports, I suspect the numbers are much lower. So, there likely are more athletic dollars available, but I'm not so sure there are necessarily more total dollars there. Still, my point is, the better athlete typically attends the D1 school over the D2 school... for whatever reason(s.)

I'm not saying every player on every team is on a full ride. But in D1, the scholarship students are on full rides, not partial like in D2. The 36 scholarships for football in D2 are split up among 90 guys (for example). The 85 scholarships in D1 are 85 full rides to 85 players. The same goes for the other sports. There might be 16 players on a D1 basketball team, but 13 of them are on full rides and the other 3 are non-scholarship. So in D2, the kickass football player might be getting a scholarship offer of in-state tuition (if from out of state) and paying for half their tuition (for example), while their MAC offer would be a full ride. So they'll almost always take the MAC offer. Again, that's just an example. I'm guessing most D2 schools would offer a full scholarship to someone who is holding a D1 offer, as well, but not always.

[Columbuseer]

I don't believe that D! offers are all full ride. Even in football, there are 85 equiv.. and most teams have more than that on the team. As for the other sports, I suspect the numbers are much lower. So, there likely are more athletic dollars available, but I'm not so sure there are necessarily more total dollars there. Still, my point is, the better athlete typically attends the D1 school over the D2 school... for whatever reason(s.)

For d1 football and basketball, they are all full rides, 85 and 13 respectively in non-covid normal years, unlike d2. Rest above 85 and 13 are preferred walk ons. Check out ncaa.com for more info.