West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[IUP24]

I agree. But that's the "pool" of coaches with experience in the system. Effectively the firs wave of assistants (Ben) have gotten their HC gig, the second wave (Fee, Lamberti and Hoehn) have mostly just gotten theirs so we are on the 3rd wave ,(effectively the assistants that took the place of the second wave when they got their HC shots a couple of years ago).

The most experienced WLU Style assistant is already on the Hilltop but we all kind of dismiss him.

We could always hire the tennis coach. I mean, it worked once with Crutch, maybe it will work again!!

It will be interesting to see who they hire. And I mean that sincerely. The logical candidate may not necessarily be the right choice for the job or the direction they want to go. I think it's often overstated who the "logical" choice might be. West Liberty may have a good opportunity to redefine what they want from the program or how they want to evaluate what success looks like. Here's the reality... Programs at this level probably need to temper some expectations and define how they view success, overall, within the confines of the evolving world of college athletics.

West Liberty wins 90% of the games they play. They are a strong player in the region. They do a ton of phenomenal things. But for some reason, they simply can't get over the last hurdle and win the last game playing the system that they run. Crutchfield has gotten it done (albeit, he has done that with more money and access to more elite individual talent willing to play his system for a variety of different reasons). I think the point I'm making is that West Liberty running the system they are running is going to help them to continue to go 30-3 every year by overwhelming teams throughout the season, but it may not be what they need to be running if they have designs on winning the last game of the season (which I'm betting they want to do). I don't necessarily think they are going to be able to get (or pay) the individual players necessary to elevate them to what Nova Southeastern is doing. I doubt much NIL money is flying around West Liberty, WV.

I'm not looking for anybody to give a deep X's and O's or schematic breakdown of the methodology of the system (truly, I really don't care - and that's not the point of my post). My point is that people always talk about and value player's individual growth and familiarity within the structure of the system they run, and that being what ultimately helps it to remain successful year over year. Perhaps, the year over year success and consistency may need to waver in favor of a change of style, which offers a different approach to their recruiting and construction of their roster. I'm not suggesting that West Liberty divert to playing 1950s basketball. But if they want to win the last game of the season, is just going to the next guy who looks to recruit overlooked or underappreciated talents for continued system emphasis the logical decision? I'm not entirely sure that it is.

Players no longer look at playing at places like IUP or West Liberty as an opportunity to win a national championship. They look at those landing spots as a necessary means to reach higher levels. The sooner that our programs realize that, the better positioned they will be to win at this level. West Liberty may be uniquely positioned to pivot on their current approach, attract guys who can shine more individually in a different system, but be open towards them leaving in a year or two. I think this is what Joe Lombardi is trying to learn at IUP (and he's probably just not very good at it).

[IUP24]

It will be interesting to see who they hire. And I mean that sincerely. The logical candidate may not necessarily be the right choice for the job or the direction they want to go. I think it's often overstated who the "logical" choice might be. West Liberty may have a good opportunity to redefine what they want from the program or how they want to evaluate what success looks like. Here's the reality... Programs at this level probably need to temper some expectations and define how they view success, overall, within the confines of the evolving world of college athletics.

West Liberty wins 90% of the games they play. They are a strong player in the region. They do a ton of phenomenal things. But for some reason, they simply can't get over the last hurdle and win the last game playing the system that they run. Crutchfield has gotten it done (albeit, he has done that with more money and access to more elite individual talent willing to play his system for a variety of different reasons). I think the point I'm making is that West Liberty running the system they are running is going to help them to continue to go 30-3 every year by overwhelming teams throughout the season, but it may not be what they need to be running if they have designs on winning the last game of the season (which I'm betting they want to do). I don't necessarily think they are going to be able to get (or pay) the individual players necessary to elevate them to what Nova Southeastern is doing. I doubt much NIL money is flying around West Liberty, WV.

I'm not looking for anybody to give a deep X's and O's or schematic breakdown of the methodology of the system (truly, I really don't care - and that's not the point of my post). My point is that people always talk about and value player's individual growth and familiarity within the structure of the system they run, and that being what ultimately helps it to remain successful year over year. Perhaps, the year over year success and consistency may need to waver in favor of a change of style, which offers a different approach to their recruiting and construction of their roster. I'm not suggesting that West Liberty divert to playing 1950s basketball. But if they want to win the last game of the season, is just going to the next guy who looks to recruit overlooked or underappreciated talents for continued system emphasis the logical decision? I'm not entirely sure that it is.

Players no longer look at playing at places like IUP or West Liberty as an opportunity to win a national championship. They look at those landing spots as a necessary means to reach higher levels. The sooner that our programs realize that, the better positioned they will be to win at this level. West Liberty may be uniquely positioned to pivot on their current approach, attract guys who can shine more individually in a different system, but be open towards them leaving in a year or two. I think this is what Joe Lombardi is trying to learn at IUP (and he's probably just not very good at it).

To clarify one item here... I think Howlett actually recruited higher end guys than Crutchfield did during his time at West Liberty. I've long stated that Crutchfield heavily went into farming towns, Amish country in Ohio, low population areas in WV, etc. He once pulled somebody out of an Ohio high school that graduated less than 50 people (I forget who). I think Howlett did a good job at going into more urban areas and pulling players with higher end talents, not necessarily just overlooked or underappreciated traits.

I think the larger issue is that you either:

1) Aren't getting enough of those guys to win when you get very deep into the tournament.

Or

2) Aren't emphasizing individual skill sets enough because of the system being deployed. Which may impact the "why" behind #1.

I'm not suggesting that West Liberty abandon entirely what they has made them successful, but sometimes the opportunity to change what's worked for a long time is a good change. It's a different era of basketball and college sports now. More and more "good players" end up in D2 annually out of high school (for at least a year or two) because the portal just recycles players all around D1 and less guys land there from high school. If you can find a way to attract players to shine more on an individual basis to help them reach their goals (which is to play D1 basketball), it may just help you in the short term (winning a national title). That's the approach all these teams have to take. And de-emphasizing individual talents in favor of a frantic system to simply wear teams down and win big in January and February may not be what is attractive to those types of players.

You may not win 30+ games a year taking that approach. You may not be a contender to host or win the region every year. But it may get you closer to winning a championship in the evolving world we are seeing. My personal belief is when WL lost to Nova in the title game, that was the closest they'll ever get playing that system.

I'm not suggesting what I'm saying is right. But I think it's valuable to look at an alternative perspective other than just hiring the next ex-West Lib player.

[Columbuseer]

It would be ill advised for wlu to try any different style. No other style wins 85% of games over a 10 year period. Crutch has the highest winning % in history of any coach with > = 10 yrs of coaching, breaking Clair Bee's record. The style works because it is based on sound data analytics.

Look at elite 8 appearances in the last 11 years. Impressive.
When one gets to this level:
- one cannot have a bad shooting night.
-One will also encounter generational teams, who had caught lightning in a bottle for one year to reach elite 8 for 1st time in a long time. CSDH comes to mind.
- One will also encounter matchup challenges against d1 level talent.

imho, wlu just needs to continue to upgrade talent and keep the same system. It would help if wlu fans would give more $ to expand recruiting footprint.

[Columbuseer]

It is amazing the success of wlu given its location. A friend said a Fayetteville State fan said "your players must make straight A's"
my friend asked why?
" Because there is nothing to do here except play basketball and study!"

[Columbuseer]

Fyi
official press release by IU Indy.
https://iuindyjags.com/news/2025/5/2...all-coach.aspx

[Chuck Norris]

To clarify one item here... I think Howlett actually recruited higher end guys than Crutchfield did during his time at West Liberty. I've long stated that Crutchfield heavily went into farming towns, Amish country in Ohio, low population areas in WV, etc. He once pulled somebody out of an Ohio high school that graduated less than 50 people (I forget who). I think Howlett did a good job at going into more urban areas and pulling players with higher end talents, not necessarily just overlooked or underappreciated traits.

I think the larger issue is that you either:

1) Aren't getting enough of those guys to win when you get very deep into the tournament.

Or

2) Aren't emphasizing individual skill sets enough because of the system being deployed. Which may impact the "why" behind #1.

I'm not suggesting that West Liberty abandon entirely what they has made them successful, but sometimes the opportunity to change what's worked for a long time is a good change. It's a different era of basketball and college sports now. More and more "good players" end up in D2 annually out of high school (for at least a year or two) because the portal just recycles players all around D1 and less guys land there from high school. If you can find a way to attract players to shine more on an individual basis to help them reach their goals (which is to play D1 basketball), it may just help you in the short term (winning a national title). That's the approach all these teams have to take. And de-emphasizing individual talents in favor of a frantic system to simply wear teams down and win big in January and February may not be what is attractive to those types of players.

You may not win 30+ games a year taking that approach. You may not be a contender to host or win the region every year. But it may get you closer to winning a championship in the evolving world we are seeing. My personal belief is when WL lost to Nova in the title game, that was the closest they'll ever get playing that system.

I'm not suggesting what I'm saying is right. But I think it's valuable to look at an alternative perspective other than just hiring the next ex-West Lib player.

It is pretty hard to fathom that WL has won this astoundingly high percentage of their games for 15 straight years without a national championship to show for it. From that perspective I see your point. But I think what they’re doing is still by far their best chance. They’re still attracting good players and the style of play still sets them apart from the majority of D2. Coming to a remote school in the mountains of WV to play “ordinary” basketball is a tough sell, hence the lack of success prior to Crutchfield. Even in this new world where the top players are gone in a year or two, staying the course seems like their best chance to stay at an elite level and maybe one year the stars finally align.

[IUP24]

It is pretty hard to fathom that WL has won this astoundingly high percentage of their games for 15 straight years without a national championship to show for it. From that perspective I see your point. But I think what they’re doing is still by far their best chance. They’re still attracting good players and the style of play still sets them apart from the majority of D2. Coming to a remote school in the mountains of WV to play “ordinary” basketball is a tough sell, hence the lack of success prior to Crutchfield. Even in this new world where the top players are gone in a year or two, staying the course seems like their best chance to stay at an elite level and maybe one year the stars finally align.

I would argue that they have bucked the reputation of being just a school in the mountains of WV. They're a basketball school. Players are traveling far and wide to say they are a D1 player in areas far less than desirable than West Liberty, WV. I think they will attract good coaching candidates regardless of style of coaching they want to deploy. And good coaching candidates will attract good players.

The larger point is that they've not won the last game of the season. Anyone can point to any reason as to why they haven't (Columbuseer pointed to the exact three that I expected he would provide as a response - that's not a knock on him, but he mostly proved my point). West Lib isn't ever a generational team because they won't attract the collection of generational talent. My opinion is that I don't think they'll get closer than they did 2-3 years ago. Much like I don't think IUP will ever get that close again. This conversation has been discussed in the IUP threads from time to time. Is it more fun to just say you're competitive every year and in the conversation? Or would you rather do what's necessary to win the last game, while accepting there may be some lesser years between the great ones? I can't answer that question for them.

Perhaps I have a differing opinion on what D2 basketball now is compared to others. Jim Crutchfield, running that system and doing it with elite players who should be playing D1 basketball, is one of one. That's a complement to him, and a huge one at that. The real path to winning at this level, and doing it big, is finding a coach who has zero interest in staying in the D2 level, and surrounding himself with players who have no interest in playing at the D2 level either. You obviously need a coach good enough, and players good enough. But the idea is they use each other to climb the ladder at the same time, but winning big in the dregs of college hoops while doing it. Ben McCollum is the perfect example.

Again - no knock on West Liberty at all. I'm simply offering that sometimes change can be good even when it doesn't appear necessary, may be uncomfortable or scary, and might even be unpopular.

[IUP24]

It would be ill advised for wlu to try any different style. No other style wins 85% of games over a 10 year period. Crutch has the highest winning % in history of any coach with > = 10 yrs of coaching, breaking Clair Bee's record. The style works because it is based on sound data analytics.

Look at elite 8 appearances in the last 11 years. Impressive.
When one gets to this level:
- one cannot have a bad shooting night.
-One will also encounter generational teams, who had caught lightning in a bottle for one year to reach elite 8 for 1st time in a long time. CSDH comes to mind.
- One will also encounter matchup challenges against d1 level talent.

imho, wlu just needs to continue to upgrade talent and keep the same system. It would help if wlu fans would give more $ to expand recruiting footorint.

It doesn't matter how or why they lost in the Elite Eight. It matters that they did. The teams with the 1 trip the to Elite Eight over a long period you're referencing... They have the banner. Our schools don't.

Understand I'm not being critical of them or their approach. I'm not criticizing the program. I'm just offering an alternative viewpoint in what is an interesting coaching search for the program.

Forget about having a bad shooting night. You need to be asking, "How does West Liberty become one of those generational teams?" For as good as they are - always - they always tend to run into superior talent. For as conditioned as they are, and for as much as they wear everyone down in January and February - they always tend to run out of steam late in March. Again, you need to ask the question of "why?" for each of those questions.... THAT is what the brass making this decision need to evaluate.

My position is that you mostly run into teams at that stage with more elite individual talent. That elite individual talent beats the system. And my position is that you can't attract more elite individual talent running the style you play because these kids don't really care about winning 85% of games over a 10 year period. Players of the caliber we are discussing care about leaving West Liberty as quickly as possible to reach their next destination on their upward journey. I'm not saying that you go back to the stone ages. But if you adapted your style to one that is more favorable to individual talent, you brought more high end players in because of it, only won 65-70% of your games over the next decade, but had a national championship t-shirt to wear, wouldn't you prefer that more? I bet you would. That's what I'm trying to convey here.

[Columbuseer]

It doesn't matter how or why they lost in the Elite Eight. It matters that they did. The teams with the 1 trip the to Elite Eight over a long period you're referencing... They have the banner. Our schools don't.

Understand I'm not being critical of them or their approach. I'm not criticizing the program. I'm just offering an alternative viewpoint in what is an interesting coaching search for the program.

Forget about having a bad shooting night. You need to be asking, "How does West Liberty become one of those generational teams?" For as good as they are - always - they always tend to run into superior talent. For as conditioned as they are, and for as much as they wear everyone down in January and February - they always tend to run out of steam late in March. Again, you need to ask the question of "why?" for each of those questions.... THAT is what the brass making this decision need to evaluate.

My position is that you mostly run into teams at that stage with more elite individual talent. That elite individual talent beats the system. And my position is that you can't attract more elite individual talent running the style you play because these kids don't really care about winning 85% of games over a 10 year period. Players of the caliber we are discussing care about leaving West Liberty as quickly as possible to reach their next destination on their upward journey. I'm not saying that you go back to the stone ages. But if you adapted your style to one that is more favorable to individual talent, you brought more high end players in because of it, only won 65-70% of your games over the next decade, but had a national championship t-shirt to wear, wouldn't you prefer that more? I bet you would. That's what I'm trying to convey here.

By generational, i mean a team that comes along only ONCE in a coach's lifetime.

I just disagree with the premise that all elite d2 players don't want to play the style. I agree that most selfish or low bball iq elite d2 players will probably go somewhere else. Many wlu players have been coach's or ex-players' sons. They love the freedom this style offers. They are also excellent in all fundamentals.

Nova se success contradicts the claim that a change in style is needed. Nova will still likely defeat another team who plays a different style so playing a different style will still result in a national title eluding wlu. Only a last second shot kept nova from winning 3 in a row.

wlu often plays teams with better individual talent. They lose to these teams when they shoot significantly below their average.

Also each elite 8 is an independent event. The number of previous trips does not matter. if you flip a coin 15 times and it comes up tails each time, what are the odds of it being heads on the 16th attempt?
50-50.

But I encourage all atlantic region teams to strive to win 60-70% of games with a different style and hope for a dominant team once every 30 years.


On the other hand, i think wlu should be worried about Fayetteville with Hoehn, who may get superior athletes that embrace playing a superior style.

Regardless of the style, winning the title requires luck in matchups, and game performance.

[IUP24]

I just disagree with the premise that all elite d2 players don't want to play the style. I agree that most selfish elite d2 players will probably go somewhere else. Many wlu players have been coach's or ex-players' sons.
Nova se success contradicts the claim that a change in style is needed. Nova will still likely defeat another team who plays a different style so playing a different style will still elude wlu. Only a last second shot kept nova from winning 3 in a row.

But I encourage all atlantic region teams to strive to win 60-70% of games with a different style.
On the other hand, i think wlu should be worried abiut Fayetteville with Hoehn, who may get superior athletes.

I addressed that. Jim Crutchfield is one of one. Bottom line. He is an elite coach playing a unique style and he has the resources to bring in legitimate D1 talent to play - temporarily - at a D2 program.

99% of D2 programs don’t have that combination.

[Columbuseer]

I addressed that. Jim Crutchfield is one of one. Bottom line. He is an elite coach playing a unique style and he has the resources to bring in legitimate D1 talent to play - temporarily - at a D2 program.

99% of D2 programs don’t have that combination.

If he is truly one of one, then the rest of us are playing for 2nd place, regardless of the style. Three points against csdh and imho I think we would have won the semi finals to face Nova se twice in 3 years. We were the #2 seed.

But your point about resources is valid. Nova has the beach, gorgeous campus, 70% female student body, NIL, and an elite coach. Tough competition. But nova only has 10 scholarships, so there are other competitive players out there who can play the wlu style.

[Columbuseer]

The players come to wlu because they want to win. After enduring the 30 tight turns in the 8 miles from wheeling, they walk into the gym and see all the championship banners. That and the open gym tryout then seals the deal. They understand that wlu expects to go to the Elite 8 every year. Players want to take us to the next step - a national title.

We are starting to get some d1 level players, such as Harper who is now at D1 Liberty.

[IUP24]

The players come to wlu because they want to win. After enduring the 30 tight turns in the 8 miles from wheeling, they walk into the gym and see all the championship banners. That and the open gym tryout then seals the deal. They understand that wlu expects to go to the Elite 8 every year. Players want to take us to the next step - a national title.

We are starting to get some d1 level players, such as Harper who is now at D1 Liberty.

I think you took this as a shot at your program. It was never intended to be that. I just think you’re too married to a system. You are largely devaluing what the modern day athlete values at this current juncture.

Are there exceptions to that? Sure.

Have good D2 programs gotten those guys? Absolutely.

Do enough of those elite players exist who are willing to play a style predicated on not utilizing individual talents, which may impact their future climb, and all go to the same place at the same time? It hasn’t happened yet anywhere other than the school with the resources to make It work.

Again, just be open to a differing perspective. Change is hard, but it can be good. I am not trying to argue negatively about West Liberty basketball. Other human beings coach up tempo styles that differ some that have no connection to West Liberty that may offer their program something different that may interest those making the hire. That’s really all I’m trying to say.

[Columbuseer]

I think you took this as a shot at your program. It was never intended to be that. I just think you’re too married to a system. You are largely devaluing what the modern day athlete values at this current juncture.

Are there exceptions to that? Sure.

Have good D2 programs gotten those guys? Absolutely.

Do enough of those elite players exist who are willing to play a style predicated on not utilizing individual talents, which may impact their future climb, and all go to the same place at the same time? It hasn’t happened yet anywhere other than the school with the resources to make It work.

Again, just be open to a differing perspective. Change is hard, but it can be good. I am not trying to argue negatively about West Liberty basketball. Other human beings coach up tempo styles that differ some that have no connection to West Liberty that may offer their program something different that may interest those making the hire. That’s really all I’m trying to say.

I did not take it as a shot at the program. I was just defending the style of play, which relies on teamwork, strong fundamentals, unselfish play, tremendous effort, and being willing to play just 15 to 25 minutes a game. We want the best player possible as long as they buy into this philosophy.

The success of Gannon, Bluefield State, Coker, wlu and nova se supports this assertion.
I believe it is superior to many other styles because it can defeat teams with better 1 on 1 players, mainly by causing extreme fatigue in the opponent. Fatigue results in bad shots, turnovers, and reduced rebounding stats and lower points per possession. Fatigue makes cowards of us all.

[IUP24]

I did not take it as a shot at the program. I was just defending the style of play, which relies on teamwork, strong fundamentals, unselfish play, tremendous effort, and being willing to play just 15 to 25 minutes a game. We want the best player possible as long as they buy into this philosophy.

The success of Gannon, Bluefield State, Coker, wlu and nova se supports this assertion.
I believe it is superior to many other styles because it can defeat teams with better 1 on 1 players, mainly by causing extreme fatigue in the opponent. Fatigue results in bad shots, turnovers, and reduced rebounding stats and lower points per possession. Fatigue makes cowards of us all.

I’m not disputing your reasoning. But only Nova, with their resources, managed to get the job done. I’m merely expressing that adapting that system some with their next hire may serve West Liberty well.