Iup basketball

[boatcapt]

Re: Iup basketball

It's entirely possible that this is 100% accurate. But if I'm gonna give one side the benefit of the doubt, I'll just look at the non conference schedules IUP plays under Joe vs what West Lib played under Crutch. Absolutely no comparison. Joe has all the leverage here. He doesn't need West Lib in order to put together a formidable non con schedule. Never has, never will. Conversely all we've heard for years from the West Lib camp is the whining about how no one will play them. Well, apparently the offer was there. Was it a bit of a strong arming attempt on Joe's part if all the details are true? Yeah it was. And I don't blame him. IUP built him a big fancy arena and he's trying to fill it.

And conversely I'll stack Crutch's record in head to head games v IUP, number of regional titles and Elite 8 appearances to IUP's under Joe. As you say, absolutely no comparison. All we've heard for years from the IUP camp is about how their tough schedule early in the season make them tougher in the playoffs. Of course, that seems to go out the window most of the time when they have faced WLU. I really don't blame Joe for coming up with a wacky scheme he figured Crutch would summarily dismiss...why would he really want to take another loss to Crutch???

[Chuck Norris]

Re: Iup basketball

And conversely I'll stack Crutch's record in head to head games v IUP, number of regional titles and Elite 8 appearances to IUP's under Joe. As you say, absolutely no comparison. All we've heard for years from the IUP camp is about how their tough schedule early in the season make them tougher in the playoffs. Of course, that seems to go out the window most of the time when they have faced WLU. I really don't blame Joe for coming up with a wacky scheme he figured Crutch would summarily dismiss...why would he really want to take another loss to Crutch???

Elite 8 appearances are heavily in Crutch's favor, no denying that. Head to head? 3-2 with a fairly comfortable win on each side and 3 barnburners that could have gone either way. Hardly an advantage worth thumping your chest over. But I don't blame Crutch for not giving Joe a chance to even the series. Just like I don't blame him for running to Florida once the MEC started punching back a little.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

My favorite Billy Beane quote:

If you lose the last game of the season nobody cares.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

And, ... if (big if) IUP is ever going to win that last game of the season ... it may be in one of these next two years. Joe's loaded in all facets this year and next. These are the two teams the past two years were spent building up.


Whomever gets out of the Atlantic this year is going to have a real shot at cutting down the final net.

[Columbuseer]

Re: Iup basketball

Elite 8 appearances are heavily in Crutch's favor, no denying that. Head to head? 3-2 with a fairly comfortable win on each side and 3 barnburners that could have gone either way. Hardly an advantage worth thumping your chest over. But I don't blame Crutch for not giving Joe a chance to even the series. Just like I don't blame him for running to Florida once the MEC started punching back a little.

I have been studying about fallacies in inductive arguments. The media inundates us with fallacious arguments.
I am not trying to beat you up, but your argument regarding the reason for Crutch leaving WLU has a non sequitur (conclusion does not follow from premises) fallacy.
Premises:
1. Crutch went 28-4 at WLU in 2016-17, which is about his 12 year average (#1 in NCAA in winning % with >= 10 yrs experience)
2. Nova won 6 games last year and had only 3 wins in conference.

Conclusion: Crutch left WLU and ran to Nova because he was tired to losing to conference schools.

The conclusion (He left for Nova SE because he was tired of losing conference games) does not follow from the premises. Who would go to conference doormat from West Lib who won the conference tournament?

The SSC had the national champion 3 or 4 years ago in FLorida Southern.
I can't speak for Crutch, but I know why I would leave West Lib or IUP for that matter to Nova SE

1. Incredible campus and facilities. They just got a 32x12 foot jumbotron
3. West Lib like academics - Average GPA for all athletes (not just basketball) was 3.32.
4. $100M endowment
5. Strong Foreign student presence - Two from Sweden are on the basketball team - that may be source of talented big men for Crutch's system.
6. He wanted a new challenge at this stage of his career.
7. Access to 7 Million people in the greater Miami area

With these recruiting advantages Nova SE could be a sleeping giant under Crutch and could obtain the talent and environment to make a serious national title run in 2 yrs.

I think both Crutch and Lombardi are outstanding coaches. It is a pleasure to watch them in action. IMHO, there are advantages to both in not playing in the regular season. The primary one is not to give each other experience prior to the regional game.
I don't think it is relevant that WLU handed Fairmont its only 2 losses (and lost a late lead at Fairmont in the other meeting) prior to the national title game and IUP lost to FSU. It is all about match-ups and the style of play. So I don't subscribe to the who ducked whom discussion.
However, I don't understand why a D1 school won't play West Lib when they will play IUP, Wheeling Jesuit, Glenville, and others. Crutch has been wanting a game with WVU. I thought this was going to be the year, but there were likely scheduling issues. Clearly it would be a long shot for West Lib to hang with a major D1 for the entire game.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

There are more options than just WVU. Pitt is right up the street. Ohio State is close. Virginia. Of course the big P5 conferences might not have allowed MEC officials.

I don't think Syracuse or Villanova would run scared of WL. I know first-hand Villanova didn't want to play a D2. It's below them. But Joe is very close with Jay Wright and that's the only reason they played last year.

Joe Lombardi and Bobby Huggins both ducked Crutch? Get serious. WVU would have hung 40 on WL last year in a real game. Maybe 50. You really think WL would put up a big number against Jim Boheim's zone or Huggins' speed and pressure?
Athletes of a different level and skill set ...

It's an astronomical difference from the top of D2 to the top of D1. The best D2 team last year ... NWMS or Fairmont ... wouldn't win a game in the ACC all season. They'd get blown out nightly. The difference in depth is massive.

Believe me ... none of these guys wanted to be at IUP or WL or Augustana. If they had D1 offers they wouldn't be here. The transfers who end up here in almost all cases just weren't good enough for D1.

I'm not getting in to the WL vs IUP stuff. Both are great programs and have had great success. I'd just like to see them play more often. I'm a fan. I'm allowed to wish.

[Columbuseer]

Re: Iup basketball

And, ... if (big if) IUP is ever going to win that last game of the season ... it may be in one of these next two years. Joe's loaded in all facets this year and next. These are the two teams the past two years were spent building up. Whomever gets out of the Atlantic this year is going to have a real shot at cutting down the final net.

I agree it will be a great Atlantic season. IUP, Ship, Wheeling Jesuit, West Lib. Mazulla at Fairmont will be interesting. Shepherd seems to have a good coach. I have a lot of respect for McBride at Cal. I saw him beat Crutch at Concord when they were #1 in the country. Great coach.

[boatcapt]

Re: Iup basketball

Well stated Colombus! Bottom line, Crutch left for a higher challenge equipped with all the bells and whistles of a D1...not because of any "fear" of his fellow MEC opponents. Also, neither Crutch or Joe had a burning desire to play each other in the regular season because it didn't really benefit either to do so. They both found pretty effective ways to produce winning programs without playing in the regular season. No benefit to either to play a game that would be a toss-up most years...Joe felt that preparing his team required that he play a tough, but not too tough, OOC schedule understanding that he might lose some of those games. Scheduling WLU was at best a 50/50 W/L proposition and a loss to them, coupled with a couple of other losses could have a very negative effect come NCAA time. Crutch used his OOC's as almost an extended preseason were he experimented with lineup combinations and honed team endurance and stamina by playing lesser opponents. He knew the MEC and WVIAC before that was filled with teams that were way underrated that would provide plenty of "game hardening" for an NCAA run even if the "experts" scoffed at how he prepared his team. Playing IUP really ran counter to how Crutch prepared his teams so playing them made no sense for them either.

Both Joe and Crutch are really good coaches who prepared their teams in dramatically different ways. These differences ment it made almost zero sense for either to truly want to play the other in the regular season. They were on different roads that often got them to the same place...but not until the NCAA SR1 regional tourney.

Oh...and the difference between 3-2 and 2-3 is one is a winner and the other is a LOOOOOSSSSSER!!

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

Joe still got to more title games ... lol.

I think we'll still debate this in 25 years.

Thank goodness football starts this week.

And .. seriously ... Ft. Lauderdale is one of the nicest places in the country. Anybody would be nuts to turn that down.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

Since you brought it up ... IUP leads the all-time series 4-3.

Since we can't play basketball ... come up for a football game sometime. Or we'd come down.

[boatcapt]

Re: Iup basketball

There are more options than just WVU. Pitt is right up the street. Ohio State is close. Virginia. Of course the big P5 conferences might not have allowed MEC officials.

I don't think Syracuse or Villanova would run scared of WL. I know first-hand Villanova didn't want to play a D2. It's below them. But Joe is very close with Jay Wright and that's the only reason they played last year.

Joe Lombardi and Bobby Huggins both ducked Crutch? Get serious. WVU would have hung 40 on WL last year in a real game. Maybe 50. You really think WL would put up a big number against Jim Boheim's zone or Huggins' speed and pressure?
Athletes of a different level and skill set ...

It's an astronomical difference from the top of D2 to the top of D1. The best D2 team last year ... NWMS or Fairmont ... wouldn't win a game in the ACC all season. They'd get blown out nightly. The difference in depth is massive.

Believe me ... none of these guys wanted to be at IUP or WL or Augustana. If they had D1 offers they wouldn't be here. The transfers who end up here in almost all cases just weren't good enough for D1.

I'm not getting in to the WL vs IUP stuff. Both are great programs and have had great success. I'd just like to see them play more often. I'm a fan. I'm allowed to wish.

I just don't see why people think its so cool to scrimmage a "big name" D1? I mean, other than giving the fan base the ability to crow about how they ONLY lost the scrimmage by 10 points (or 20 or 30), I don't see any benefit.

I don't know but I don't think Crutch sought out D1's to scrimmage as it didn't really contribute to how he prepared his team for a tourney run. It doesn't seem like any D1s sought WLU out either. Doubt any D1s were scared to play WLU but again, what benefit for them? WLU was/is sufficiently different in style that a D1 would get almost no benefit from scrimmaging them. No desire from either side means it's probably not going to happen.

[boatcapt]

Re: Iup basketball

Since you brought it up ... IUP leads the all-time series 4-3.

Since we can't play basketball ... come up for a football game sometime. Or we'd come down.

You'll have to talk to the PSAC and see if they will "unlock" your schedules...but do it quick cause starting in 2019 MEC teams will be playing no OOC games!

[Columbuseer]

Re: Iup basketball

There are more options than just WVU. Pitt is right up the street. Ohio State is close. Virginia. Of course the big P5 conferences might not have allowed MEC officials.

I don't think Syracuse or Villanova would run scared of WL. I know first-hand Villanova didn't want to play a D2. It's below them. But Joe is very close with Jay Wright and that's the only reason they played last year.

Joe Lombardi and Bobby Huggins both ducked Crutch? Get serious. WVU would have hung 40 on WL last year in a real game. Maybe 50. You really think WL would put up a big number against Jim Boheim's zone or Huggins' speed and pressure?
Athletes of a different level and skill set ...

It's an astronomical difference from the top of D2 to the top of D1. The best D2 team last year ... NWMS or Fairmont ... wouldn't win a game in the ACC all season. They'd get blown out nightly. The difference in depth is massive.

Believe me ... none of these guys wanted to be at IUP or WL or Augustana. If they had D1 offers they wouldn't be here. The transfers who end up here in almost all cases just weren't good enough for D1.

I'm not getting in to the WL vs IUP stuff. Both are great programs and have had great success. I'd just like to see them play more often. I'm a fan. I'm allowed to wish.

I agree. Both iup and west lib are great programs. The athletic ability differences are huge between d1 and d2. D1 also gets the nod in dunks, missed foul shots, wild 3 pt shots,selfish knucklehead plays and lack of teamwork, and team defense except for wvu, duke, Gonzaga, uva etc. That is what gives a few d2 teams a chance. Augustana beat Iowa in 2015. St Thomas aquinas beat st John's by 30 pts. So it is not impossible. Wvu is not a good matchup for west lib imho.. Too much teamwork and defense. Huggins exorcises the aau demons from his players the first year. I suspect wvu and west lib could not play due to Germany trip at start of season or perhaps howlett did not want the game at this time. I have read interviews where crutch was intrigued about seeing how his system measured up against d1. Last d1 school was Marshall around his first or second year in 2004 I think. They took Marshall to the wire like last two minutes.
Does iup have a shot against Pitt?

[Columbuseer]

Re: Iup basketball

I just don't see why people think its so cool to scrimmage a "big name" D1? I mean, other than giving the fan base the ability to crow about how they ONLY lost the scrimmage by 10 points (or 20 or 30), I don't see any benefit.

I don't know but I don't think Crutch sought out D1's to scrimmage as it didn't really contribute to how he prepared his team for a tourney run. It doesn't seem like any D1s sought WLU out either. Doubt any D1s were scared to play WLU but again, what benefit for them? WLU was/is sufficiently different in style that a D1 would get almost no benefit from scrimmaging them. No desire from either side means it's probably not going to happen.

I think u nailed it boatcapt. No mutual benefit. West lib style is sufficiently different that a d1 would have to prepare. Preoare for an exhibition whose style you would never see again. No point to it.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: Iup basketball

I'd love to see Pitt this year in men's basketball but unfortunately they aren't playing. The women are playing an exhibition at Pitt. IUP isnt playing any D1 games this year due to the opening (early) weekend in Evansville.

Pitt may be historically bad this year. The Pitt men are playing UPJ. Pitt will be incredibly young. Who knows, I guess.

I'd probably agree with the games. I do think it's a really neat experience for the players, though. Playing at the Carrier Dome was probably something IUP's players will never forget. Watch Jim Boeheim's press conference after the IUP game last year. He pretty much said a lot of what you guys are saying. He said his 7-footers will never have to go out and cover 6'6" post players beyond the arc. It was still neat to watch. Syracuse actually struggled big time in the first 15 minutes of that game. IUP was up 29-12. Then the Orange got annoyed.

Playing Villanova last year ... again ... neat experience but you're talking NBA guys and the defending D1 national champion. That's probably a bit much for any D2 team to handle.