OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

[BleedPlaid]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

As a long time Boro supporter I find this law suit very frustrating.

-the average pay of the PASSHE women's volleyball head coaches is $61,049. High is $79,618. Low is $44,342. And that's salary not including camp income. EUP's WVB coach makes $73,251 (toward the top of the PSAC range) which seems appropriate given she has been PSAC West Champion once and they've been to the playoffs numerous times. So, should she be compared to a higher-profile, more competitive coaching structure like basketball, football or Division 1 wrestling? I don't think so. That's not the way it works. But alas, this forum thread already discussed that back on page 2 & 3. Is a federal court going to tell Penn State to pay its Women's Basketball coach similar to James Franklin? Revenue's connection to coach's salaries isn't the point. Paying a competitive coach's salary based on the nature of the sport is the point.

-The way Bruce Baumgartner and Tim Flynn handle the revenue from summer camps is consistent with how it is done across the nation in D1 wrestling. It's fine, it's not corrupt, get over it.

-Once you get into D1, you stop comparing salaries within conference....you start comparing salaries nationally. Flynn's success with his incredibly limited resources (compared nationally) is impressive to say the least. Anyone who says otherwise is clouded by alternative motives. He didn't turn down the Pitt job because of anything related to Pitt....he wanted to stay at Edinboro. He likes the Boro. He's committed.

-This law suit is destabilizing to the Athletic Department. It seems like a huge stroke or punch to address this issue. I am fine with huge destabilizing law suits if the issue is addressing incredible harm and corruption. This is simply not the case here. This law suit gives one person a huge platform to air their opinion and the University has to stay quiet as they deal with it. Meanwhile, what if that opinion is wrong? The damage is done....the bad press is already unleashed and can't be taken back. Doesn't seem right.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

As a long time Boro supporter I find this law suit very frustrating.

-the average pay of the PASSHE women's volleyball head coaches is $61,049. High is $79,618. Low is $44,342. And that's salary not including camp income. EUP's WVB coach makes $73,251 (toward the top of the PSAC range) which seems appropriate given she has been PSAC West Champion once and they've been to the playoffs numerous times. So, should she be compared to a higher-profile, more competitive coaching structure like basketball, football or Division 1 wrestling? I don't think so. That's not the way it works. But alas, this forum thread already discussed that back on page 2 & 3. Is a federal court going to tell Penn State to pay its Women's Basketball coach similar to James Franklin? Revenue's connection to coach's salaries isn't the point. Paying a competitive coach's salary based on the nature of the sport is the point.

-The way Bruce Baumgartner and Tim Flynn handle the revenue from summer camps is consistent with how it is done across the nation in D1 wrestling. It's fine, it's not corrupt, get over it.

-Once you get into D1, you stop comparing salaries within conference....you start comparing salaries nationally. Flynn's success with his incredibly limited resources (compared nationally) is impressive to say the least. Anyone who says otherwise is clouded by alternative motives. He didn't turn down the Pitt job because of anything related to Pitt....he wanted to stay at Edinboro. He likes the Boro. He's committed.

-This law suit is destabilizing to the Athletic Department. It seems like a huge stroke or punch to address this issue. I am fine with huge destabilizing law suits if the issue is addressing incredible harm and corruption. This is simply not the case here. This law suit gives one person a huge platform to air their opinion and the University has to stay quiet as they deal with it. Meanwhile, what if that opinion is wrong? The damage is done....the bad press is already unleashed and can't be taken back. Doesn't seem right.

Agreed. There is a culture at Edinboro not found very many other places: people working in education with a "me first" attitude. They'd rather take a $10,000 raise than an extra $10,000 in annual scholarship revenue that could make them win more or help their students pay less for college.

As for the coach, her salary when she raised the issue was in the middle of the pack and I probably would have supported a raise for her based on performance.

As for the AD, I have a problem with someone being in business with someone he supervises. Especially when he's personally profiting off of using university facilities. I'm not saying its unethical - its bad optics. The first time someone perceives that wrestling gets unfair treatment they'll attribute it to the business relationship between the supervisor and supervisee that is put into place on university property. There are some statements and sentiments attributed to him that are concerning as well but unproven. If the university looks into these claims and finds any of them to be true he must be punished and I trust them to do that much.

[BoroLetterman]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

In some cases of supervision and business partners I might agree with Fightingscot82-. This however-I am not sure of. I trust 2 grown mature Professional men to handle the situation ethically and use it best for Edinboro -as you might call "optically". Weren't the camps and "business partner relationship" started before Bruce became an AD? Can you explain what you are trying to get at with "personally profiting off of using university facilities"? These facilities are paid for it's not like the university doesn't benefit. Again, I trust you realize this is a "norm" in the industry. Coaches making profit from their camps to help fund their program and their yearly salary. These camps benefit Edinboro and the student athletes in so many many ways. Start with exposure and advertising. Do you have any idea how many students come to Edinboro for their education after attending the wrestling camps? Some to wrestle collegiality, others not. I am not sure the benefit to the University could even be calculated. But I know this much-what Bruce has done for this University and community is far more than his salary can ever return. I hope the community can run this other coach out of town faster than she can even pack her bags---oh wait-her bags are already packed and it seems like she is seldom at the office working anyhow!

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

In some cases of supervision and business partners I might agree with Fightingscot82-. This however-I am not sure of. I trust 2 grown mature Professional men to handle the situation ethically and use it best for Edinboro -as you might call "optically". Weren't the camps and "business partner relationship" started before Bruce became an AD? Can you explain what you are trying to get at with "personally profiting off of using university facilities"? These facilities are paid for it's not like the university doesn't benefit. Again, I trust you realize this is a "norm" in the industry. Coaches making profit from their camps to help fund their program and their yearly salary. These camps benefit Edinboro and the student athletes in so many many ways. Start with exposure and advertising. Do you have any idea how many students come to Edinboro for their education after attending the wrestling camps? Some to wrestle collegiality, others not. I am not sure the benefit to the University could even be calculated. But I know this much-what Bruce has done for this University and community is far more than his salary can ever return. I hope the community can run this other coach out of town faster than she can even pack her bags---oh wait-her bags are already packed and it seems like she is seldom at the office working anyhow!

I'm in town.....You want to run someone out of town...feel free to get ahold of me.

[BoroLetterman]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Awe geez! Here you go with your threats again-

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Awe geez! Here you go with your threats again-

Oh, you want the community to run a woman out of town from behind your keyboard. I was offering my help since you sounded like you wanted to be aggressive.

[BoroLetterman]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

No Need to be aggressive here-Just turning the lights on the whole situation for you-

1)Bruce is not a bully-everyone in McComb and the community knows that

2)Her bags are packed and she is often not here working anyhow :wink:

3)Selfish-all about her-not about bettering Edinboro University or the students or the team she is hired to coach-

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Selfish? So anyone asking for a raise is selfish? that would include a lot including your favorite wrestling. I'm curious if anyone asked for a raise...their employer did mutiple studies..decides youre in the right. Offers a raise. You accept. Then they say wait nevermind. Lets look into this more when its already been years. Who says ok nevermind? Whether you agree with the raise here or not.

As far as everyone wanting raises over scholarship money. VB camp money goes into the fundraising for the VB team not as added salary. Just had some 12-14 hour camp days to put that money into the program. How about the other sports at Edinboro? Do any others do that? Some set up LLC's to funnel that extra cash into their pockets. Is that selfish to you? And while getting paid 2x the other psac coaches in their sport keeps asking for and getting raises.. as the school keeps taking funds from athletics. Is that selfish to you?

They can make all they want from camps..no one said that's not allowed. But the norm with D1 wrestling is to have a separate business set up between the AD and HC? I doubt that. Then the AD gives the HC raises whether its a great year or not.
Now sports are not allowed to offer this spring. Football only brought in 9. Is wrestling offering/spending money? Idk you tell me.

If not being in MCcomb means peoples bags are packed then everyone that works there is leaving too. I walked through yesterday at 230 and it was a ghost town as it usually is. And this is the age of cell phones and internet. A lot of people in there work other places,some even during business hours now...not sure how thats allowed.
Could do some recruiting this time of year but no one can spend anyway...except maybe wrestling? You guys are the insiders you tell me. Idk.

Bleedplaid. I like your nature of the sport comments. Then you lump wrestling in with MBB and football. LOL. Not quite even though I know youve always been a big wrestling supporter. Wisconsin posted their wresting HC job at 120k in an athletic department with an operating revenue (2013-14) of 124 million. The boro pays their coach 137k. So we compete with Big ten money.. while the schools in our league LH, Clarion and Bloom pay their HC"s half that.

I never said what wrestling does isnt impressive. I said Edinboro is a mid major and if you want paid big money you have to go big time. Nebraska is paying Scott Frost more than UCF ever could or would have. By a lot.

I"d think with his resume he'd at the least be a finalist at Wisconsin. But why would I stay here? Not because I'm so commited or loyal like some like to throw out about coaches in the PSAC. Coaches stay because its in their best interest. Simple. Stay at the boro and get paid 2x similar size schools with a HOF'er in my sport as a boss. Or go to a Wisconsin with better facilities and more money for the side perks...but get paid less than the CC/track coach (153k), VOlleyball (225k),
Football only Strength coach (240k), WM soccer (135k) etc, etc. And with a FB or MBB supporting AD... Football in the wisconsin case. AND still probably have more pressure to win at Wisconsin.

20 Head coaching salaries at wisconsin with all the bonuses was about 18 million and they pay the wrestling HC 120k maybe a little more in salary with experience.. plus the side hustles. I can see why you would stay here..be number 1 or just another sport that isnt Football or MBB.

Some people must have some hurt feelings. A comment the night of the EWL by Boroletterman that he deletes the next morning. But you are the guy that always goes back and deletes or makes more politically correct. Must get nervous of being found out. Then you reposted that comment 10 days later but just the first sentence and none of the wrestling praise about how great of an event the EWL was.
New member BleedPlaid, posts the sunday after the Natl' wrestling championships in Cleveland. Mustve had a nice weekend. Lots to talk about.

As far as destabilizing the athletic dept. A lot of people are trying to blur the lines between the budget cuts and this lawsuit. A lot of people seem to be working the disinformation campaign..."winning the hearts and minds"..Run this B*tch out of town one might say...Ive heard ppl blaming the lawsuit for teams not being allowed to offer any recruits...Ive heard she's asking for 10 mil to try to piss everyone off against her. A lot of people are dumb enough to believe this stuff.
The athletic dept is going to hell fast because of a lot of things... Camp money being taken, Student fee money on its way too, academic standards being raised (to a 3.0 I guess?), NY free tuition...Western NY kids that can get free tuition in NY now are off the table basically...use to be big factors for many sports. FB brought in 9 guys. Nothing to do with the lawsuit. I'm not sure but possibly no or limited academic money to be offered to kids. Incompetent leadership....etc. etc. Hello D3.

You dont like the lawsuit. Be pissed at the people that didnt let it get squashed a year ago before it ever got to this point.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Any end in sight ... or do you see this dragging out for years?

I'm sure EU would prefer to drag it out as long as possible.

[VoiceOfReason]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Has anyone found the definition of Tiering at Edinboro yet? Is the coaches compensation part of the definition?

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

The infamous Tier structure seems to be the whole case ... but, no, I can't recall reading a clear definition.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I feel like to win on the basis of tiers she has to prove Edinboro has a history of paying tier 1 coaches above average salaries. That may be hard with the men's basketball coach making middle of the pack salary even though he's tier 1.

[BleedPlaid]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

EdinboroFB, you seem to be lumping your responses to comments from both me and BoroLetterman. I like some of what you share. I guess when I referenced MBB and FB I should have then said "even D1 Wrestling" to provide some separation. I think you may have read quite a bit into the timing of my post....I actually have had a tough time getting through the process of joining the forum so I finally got through it and had a chance to post. Nothing with the weekend of national championships.

My point about how wrestling camps are run here still remains. It is consistent with school's camps nationally....Wisconsin not withstanding. I still don't think it comes to bear on this conversation regarding Coach Soboleski's law suit. My second point about Coach Flynn's salary and success still stands. I'm not sure your data about Wisconsin dispels what I am trying to say. Flynn's success given this location, size of the University, the facilities at the University, etc. remains impressive. Flynn in particular doesn't buy into the typical mindset of much of D1 athletics, that being prestige, money, size of program, spotlight, etc. Flynn & family are established in the community and I suspect they have a significant friendship structure here...not to mention their kids going to school here. My third point about destabilizing the athletic department was not about the other things you listed about this. Although those are good points! My sense is that on top of all those things you mention, this law suit is potentially more damaging than all of them.

Yes, I don't like the law suit. Even assuming there is any element of truth in its claims, it seems to be a sledge hammer being used to pound in a nail. Or, "a huge stroke or punch" as I said before.

I'd be curious to know if Coach Soboleski threatened a law suit to Baumgartner if in fact he withheld what the University approved? Another question, was Coach Soboleski truly concerned about "justice" in this compensation situation? Or if she just wanted more money, why not just go elsewhere to coach?

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I did lump my responses together...just to be easier.

I think the camps are only relevant in how raises are given and maybe in favor of wrestling...and why that would be. Not sure if in more ways than that.

My use of wrestling earlier was just as examples of numbers...in response to other posters using psac avg salaries, sport revenue, etc. I think I said wrestling has been .500 for the last few years to show about raises either way in response to other posters referring to overall success as a measure also. Not a knock...I could see how at a smaller school you have to build up and make a run every few years with a bunch of experience or landing a few high achievers. I said 9.9 scholarships are a big part of how Edinboro can compete. That's not a knock...everyone would know that. If the max in D1 wrestling was 15 or 20....the boro would already be d2. MAybe winning Natl' titles.

I agree that their are a lot of reasons coaches stay. The Psac offers a lot that you don't get elsewhere with the union, etc. And the family aspect as well with job security that coaching rarely provides. I could say she stayed here for loyalty and commitment to the school like everyone else blowing smoke up peoples asses. But I already said I don't buy that argument for anybody.

The title 9 report passhe did was going to give multiple womens coaches raises. Does anyone know what the 2nd report the school probably wasted a few hundred k on says? Ive heard its a state secret hidden in the fallout bunker under the home side of Sox Harrison.
I don't see how the lawsuit is more damaging than the other problems...or even close.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I did lump my responses together...just to be easier.

I think the camps are only relevant in how raises are given and maybe in favor of wrestling...and why that would be. Not sure if in more ways than that.

My use of wrestling earlier was just as examples of numbers...in response to other posters using psac avg salaries, sport revenue, etc. I think I said wrestling has been .500 for the last few years to show about raises either way in response to other posters referring to overall success as a measure also. Not a knock...I could see how at a smaller school you have to build up and make a run every few years with a bunch of experience or landing a few high achievers. I said 9.9 scholarships are a big part of how Edinboro can compete. That's not a knock...everyone would know that. If the max in D1 wrestling was 15 or 20....the boro would already be d2. MAybe winning Natl' titles.

I agree that their are a lot of reasons coaches stay. The Psac offers a lot that you don't get elsewhere with the union, etc. And the family aspect as well with job security that coaching rarely provides. I could say she stayed here for loyalty and commitment to the school like everyone else blowing smoke up peoples asses. But I already said I don't buy that argument for anybody.

The title 9 report passhe did was going to give multiple womens coaches raises. Does anyone know what the 2nd report the school probably wasted a few hundred k on says? Ive heard its a state secret hidden in the fallout bunker under the home side of Sox Harrison.
I don't see how the lawsuit is more damaging than the other problems...or even close.

The report and its cost are public record. As a citizen of PA you can simply ask for that information.