OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

When this came out it was the first time I've heard the 'tiers' term used specific to Edinboro. I asked some folks about it and it was explained to me that its prioritization of general scholarship revenue. Wrestling brings in a ton of money but also requires more to be able to compete at the Division I level. It was explained to me that football is Tier 2 because they do well fundraising but still need to draw from general scholarship funds to be able to compete in the PSAC West. So its not so much as saying one is more important than the other, but you hit the nail on the head that wrestling is more important than others. That's been the case for 30 years and even chronicled in a book I very much recommend, The Fighting Scots of Edinboro.

I can understand the concept that Tiers aren't totally based on "importance" but that explanation seems to imply that wrestling and the other Tier 1's don't draw from the general funds, which I highly doubt. Anyway, the entire athletics department might come under some scrutiny but it seems to me this will be settled out of court and the coaches will end up getting compensated equitably. The school will have to make up for some back pay, too. Also, EUP will want to minimize publicity surrounding the case.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Also, EUP will want to minimize publicity surrounding the case.


Strike while the iron is hot. There's probably never been a time in American history that women have as much power as they do right now. By the way, if she has some success ... guess what ... 'coming to a state school athletic department near you ...'


You ever want to the see the unofficial 'tier' system ... go visit IUP. Check out the offices of the head coaches. Joe Lombardi has a penthouse. Women's soccer and many others have glorified closets.


It would be amazing to see any of these schools become stand-alone private companies. The change would be immediate and astronomical. In the real world outside of Oak Grove's and pom-poms you get paid what you're worth. At IUP, sorry to the politically correct crowd, but the football and basketball coaches are just worth more -- and should be paid the most. That's life. If you want to win in the big sports you have to pay for it. Hire the best you can -- and pay them very well. The women's volleyball coach at Alabama likely makes 1% of what Nick Saben makes. It's all about return on investment. Frankly, the sports that generate no money aren't great investments. Naturally, the payscale follows. I get the state system doesn't work in such logical methods. It's also why so many of its members are near broke.


Pull the coaching salaries of head football coaches and basketball coaches in the PSAC. Check out men's basketball. Look what the top-paid coach makes and then look down at what Coach No. 18 makes. It's eye-opening.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Also, EUP will want to minimize publicity surrounding the case.


Strike while the iron is hot. There's probably never been a time in American history that women have as much power as they do right now. By the way, if she has some success ... guess what ... 'coming to a state school athletic department near you ...'


You ever want to the see the unofficial 'tier' system ... go visit IUP. Check out the offices of the head coaches. Joe Lombardi has a penthouse. Women's soccer and many others have glorified closets.


It would be amazing to see any of these schools become stand-alone private companies. The change would be immediate and astronomical. In the real world outside of Oak Grove's and pom-poms you get paid what you're worth. At IUP, sorry to the politically correct crowd, but the football and basketball coaches are just worth more -- and should be paid the most. That's life. If you want to win in the big sports you have to pay for it. Hire the best you can -- and pay them very well. The women's volleyball coach at Alabama likely makes 1% of what Nick Saben makes. It's all about return on investment. Frankly, the sports that generate no money aren't great investments. Naturally, the payscale follows. I get the state system doesn't work in such logical methods. It's also why so many of its members are near broke.


Pull the coaching salaries of head football coaches and basketball coaches in the PSAC. Check out men's basketball. Look what the top-paid coach makes and then look down at what Coach No. 18 makes. It's eye-opening.

Correct. FWIW, the average pay of the PASSHE women's volleyball head coaches is $61,049. High is $79,618. Low is $44,342. And that's salary not including camp income.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Speaking of ROI. I'd be curious to see how much profit IUP football made last year going 13-1.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

THe only reason Volleyball is tier 1 is they needed to match a womens sport with wrestling. Not that its so important or more so than football.

And as far as camp income. Volleyball camps at Edinboro go into the volleyball fundraising account after paying the school for the facilities....its used as a fundraiser.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

That makes two of us.

My guess would be very little in terms of dollars. It got them two extra home games with big crowds which had to help.

That said, my hunch is any D2 program in the black when it's all said and done is a success. Most are likely in the deep Red on a yearly basis. Obviously the NWMS's and Grand Valley's are exceptions -- but there aren't many of them.

It would be interesting to see what their actual operating expenses are on a given year.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I agree. I'd like to see the books for Edinboro's wrestling program. Where would the ton of money they bring in come from? I've heard their summer camps are used for more personal income than school money makers.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

That makes two of us.

My guess would be very little in terms of dollars. It got them two extra home games with big crowds which had to help.

That said, my hunch is any D2 program in the black when it's all said and done is a success. Most are likely in the deep Red on a yearly basis. Obviously the NWMS's and Grand Valley's are exceptions -- but there aren't many of them.

It would be interesting to see what their actual operating expenses are on a given year.

I think if you're looking at it from an accounting ledger, D2 football is a huge money loser. But much like the Walmart tire & lube center, that's not how you're making money. Football brings in 80-90 students that probably otherwise wouldn't be there. Some leave but also some leave the team but stay at the university. From that perspective there is a less direct ROI.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I agree. I'd like to see the books for Edinboro's wrestling program. Where would the ton of money they bring in come from? I've heard their summer camps are used for more personal income than school money makers.

Its all public record. If you're a PA citizen just ask for it. I can promise that with all this stuff going on those numbers are readily available.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

They must do very well in private donations on a yearly basis. You need a couple private-donor whales and some corporate money ... then add the slew of $50 and $100 donors and it can add up pretty fast.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I think if you're looking at it from an accounting ledger, D2 football is a huge money loser. But much like the Walmart tire & lube center, that's not how you're making money. Football brings in 80-90 students that probably otherwise wouldn't be there. Some leave but also some leave the team but stay at the university. From that perspective there is a less direct ROI.

That's probably the only way psac and d2 sports can be looked at from the school perspective. What is the dollar value for each athlete as a student to the university. A few hundred kids that probably wouldn't be on campus paying 20k to the school. Filling the dorms and eating the meal plans.

[Bart]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

The last I heard, wrestling is allowed 9.9 scholarships. I agree the AD has a lot to do with it. When the Bloom AD was also the wrestling coach, Bloom was usually in the top 20 D1 wrestling programs. Edinboro became a D1 wrestling program and joined the EWL around the time Penn State left the league. Edinboro has since passed all the long time D1 programs remaining in the league.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Excuse my lack of knowledge on the topic but who wrestles D1 and D2 in the PSAC?

I know UPJ is D2 with a strong program. Do they also max at the 9.9 scholarships or do they get less being D2?

Next big match can somebody drop a quick message? I'd live to attend one live.

You mentioned the EWL. Does that mean there isn't 'PSAC wrestling' per se but just PASSHE schools with wrestling programs?

[Bart]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Excuse my lack of knowledge on the topic but who wrestles D1 and D2 in the PSAC?

I know UPJ is D2 with a strong program. Do they also max at the 9.9 scholarships or do they get less being D2?

Next big match can somebody drop a quick message? I'd live to attend one live.

You mentioned the EWL. Does that mean there isn't 'PSAC wrestling' per se but just PASSHE schools with wrestling programs?

There is a PSAC wrestling tournament where D2 schools wrestle the D1 schools, but that's about it for the conference. The D1 programs are Bloom, Clarion, Edinboro, and Lock Haven. I recall ESU, Ship, and Slippery Rock also being D1 for periods of time. The Rock dropped the sport, and the rest are D2. I think D2 teams can offer 9 scholarships, but most don't offer any. Many of the D1 schools aren't maxed out on schollies, just like football.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

There is a PSAC wrestling tournament where D2 schools wrestle the D1 schools, but that's about it for the conference. The D1 programs are Bloom, Clarion, Edinboro, and Lock Haven. I recall ESU, Ship, and Slippery Rock also being D1 for periods of time. The Rock dropped the sport, and the rest are D2. I think D2 teams can offer 9 scholarships, but most don't offer any. Many of the D1 schools aren't maxed out on schollies, just like football.

Millersville was D1. Not sure about Ship.