OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Who's moving to NAIA?

That's a frequent suggestion when a school is struggling at D2. Move down to NAIA or D3.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I've looked into some of the stuff that's public record and into wrestling some since it's a sport I don't follow.

The average salary of a Big ten wrestling coach is 150k. Thats not including Penn St. since its technically unknown but it does include the Iowa HC thats at 360k. So that means most are below 150k in the Big ten. Wisconsin is 107k.
Edinboro is a mid-major program. The EWL is basically in football terms the MAC. The Edinboro HC makes 137k right now...similar to a lot of Big ten schools. I'm not anti-wrestling but with his success over the years, Edinboro shouldve been basically a stepping stone job to a bigger program and money.

Everyone keeps saying program revenue, success, and comparision to other psac salaries in each sport. The other psac wrestling head coaches make an average of about 70-75k. Similar to the Edinboro Assistant.

As far as success...over the last 3 years edinboro is 23-22. 9 of those wins are against the other psac d1's that pay thier coaches half as much. Edinboro is almost fully funded. I'm guessing the other psac's are not
even close. If you take the 9 wins against them out, theyre 14-23.

If you read the coaches collective bargaining agreement (its online) on raises, they're based on "exceeding expectations", "meeting expectations", etc. Even though wrestling is basically .500 the last 3 years they seem to keep getting raises as if they're above expectations. ( 44k in last 5.5 years soon to be pushing 50k) How? That would be speculation but is it because the guy deciding the raises is a business partner with the guy getting the raises? What is exceeding expectations? .500? Justin Lustig was reportly offered 1k raise for winning 9 games one year after an 0-11 season because the school had no money.

If the school pays the coaching salaries and Edinboro is broke....and they consider athletics 1 mil in the red. One example of that is the football team just had 9 guys in their recruiting class. Even Clarion's is pushing 30 guys. With recruiting being cut...is wrestling recruiting being cut? I doubt it.
This is also while the wrestling staff is paid 100k or so more than the other psac d1 wrestling staffs. As a mid major program they could cycle through young hungry HC's for half as much salary... guys that have some success and move on. Like any mid-major program. MAC football coaches, etc. Scott Frost didnt stay at UCF for a reason. Terry Bowden isnt getting SEC football money at Akron.

[jrshooter]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

That's a frequent suggestion when a school is struggling at D2. Move down to NAIA or D3.

I'm intrigued by NAIA schools. Have been for quite a while. We just don't have any frame of reference with such schools in this area. I mean, isn't Point Park about it for Pennsylvania?

I believe we think of these schools and picture sagebrush bouncing down the length of the football field with nothing but miles of plains around.

But look at some of their football stadiums, especially in the Midwest. There's some money being poured into those programs, certainly more than many D3 schools put into their facilities. It's a whole different landscape, one that we really have had no reason to examine.

For instance ... St. Ambrose in Davenport, Iowa. That stands up against any PSAC stadium I can think of.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Here's an informative article about the NAIA. Of course, the PSAC schools and most of the D3 schools were all in the NAIA before 1974 when the NCAA created D2 and D3.

https://naiatoncaa.wordpress.com/article/

[VoiceOfReason]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I've looked into some of the stuff that's public record and into wrestling some since it's a sport I don't follow.

The average salary of a Big ten wrestling coach is 150k. Thats not including Penn St. since its technically unknown but it does include the Iowa HC thats at 360k. So that means most are below 150k in the Big ten. Wisconsin is 107k.
Edinboro is a mid-major program. The EWL is basically in football terms the MAC. The Edinboro HC makes 137k right now...similar to a lot of Big ten schools. I'm not anti-wrestling but with his success over the years, Edinboro shouldve been basically a stepping stone job to a bigger program and money.

Everyone keeps saying program revenue, success, and comparision to other psac salaries in each sport. The other psac wrestling head coaches make an average of about 70-75k. Similar to the Edinboro Assistant.

As far as success...over the last 3 years edinboro is 23-22. 9 of those wins are against the other psac d1's that pay thier coaches half as much. Edinboro is almost fully funded. I'm guessing the other psac's are not
even close. If you take the 9 wins against them out, theyre 14-23.

If you read the coaches collective bargaining agreement (its online) on raises, they're based on "exceeding expectations", "meeting expectations", etc. Even though wrestling is basically .500 the last 3 years they seem to keep getting raises as if they're above expectations. ( 44k in last 5.5 years soon to be pushing 50k) How? That would be speculation but is it because the guy deciding the raises is a business partner with the guy getting the raises? What is exceeding expectations? .500? Justin Lustig was reportly offered 1k raise for winning 9 games one year after an 0-11 season because the school had no money.

If the school pays the coaching salaries and Edinboro is broke....and they consider athletics 1 mil in the red. One example of that is the football team just had 9 guys in their recruiting class. Even Clarion's is pushing 30 guys. With recruiting being cut...is wrestling recruiting being cut? I doubt it.
This is also while the wrestling staff is paid 100k or so more than the other psac d1 wrestling staffs. As a mid major program they could cycle through young hungry HC's for half as much salary... guys that have some success and move on. Like any mid-major program. MAC football coaches, etc. Scott Frost didnt stay at UCF for a reason. Terry Bowden isnt getting SEC football money at Akron.

You are only one of 2 people on planet earth that think this, she is the other. I'm all for fairness, and gender equity, but you opened the statistical door. This is the 1st year since 2013, Flynn hasn't won the PSAC Tournament, he won the EWL in 17, 15 & 14, finishing 2nd, in 16 & 13. Edinboro finished 3rd at Nationals in 2015, he also won NATIONAL COACH OF THE YEAR! Edinboro finished 5th at Nationals the previous year.

He's coached, what 3 National Champs & 38 All Americans?

I could've been convinced of a Title IX issues, violations, etc, but You just came on here and tried to compare the Volleyball coaches resume and or worth to Flynn's?

So lets have at it, shall we.

Since 2012 Edinboro's volleyball record is, 128 -73 overall, 71-50 PSAC. But if you remove the great success of 2016 (25-9)(15-3) and 2015 (31-7)(18-4) she is 72-57 overall and 38-43 in conference.

"meeting exceptions" 'exceeding expectations" She makes $75,266 a year, to be very average, with a very large allotment of scholarships. The program hasn't won a league title, and you are coming on a messageboard pleading her case?

I get that that you aren't pleased with funding for other sports, but either you are carrying out some vendetta on wrestling, Flynn or Bruce, or you're far to close to the situation to even have a messageboard debate with

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Where did I say the VB coach should make what Flynn is? No where. If you find it let me know.
Wrestling got brought in as an example because everyone started throwing in avg. psac salaries for each sport and if your above average you should be happy with that. Its based off others arguments in this thread not an attack on wrestling. Wrestling is an example of why the other HC avg is a weak argument with as far off as Edinboro wrestling is to psac averages. (140k to 75k avg.) That's why they got brought in. People say revenue. No Edinboro sport is a money maker. People said what about success.
And like I said wrestling is 23-22 the last 3 seasons. Everything I said is true. No "vendetta" as you like to say. If you have an issue with something that I said that's not accurate let me know. I said the psac/ewl is a mid major wrestling conference. Flynn's success over the years definitely could've got a big program job. Edinboro isn't it and shouldn't be. And, I'll assume if her program was funded twice as well as any other psac VB program she would win too. Is it that impressive?

Let me know what facts are wrong. You sound like an edinboro person trying to hide that you are.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Whats a very large allotment of scholarships in VB? I'm curious to that one. Is that public info somewhere?

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Funny stat since you brought it up. I'm still not saying she should be payed the same as Flynn.....playing devils advocate.....making that clear since your feelings were hurt. Taking win percentage from the years you mentioned. VB is 128-73 ( your number) is a win percentage of .636. Wrestling is 58-36 and a win percentage of .617. That's funny since its your stat you wanted in there. Wrestling has a huge funding advantage to other psac schools. Next your gonna tell me how amazing it is that the Yankees are good every year.

[Brandon]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I'm intrigued by NAIA schools. Have been for quite a while. We just don't have any frame of reference with such schools in this area. I mean, isn't Point Park about it for Pennsylvania?

I believe we think of these schools and picture sagebrush bouncing down the length of the football field with nothing but miles of plains around.

But look at some of their football stadiums, especially in the Midwest. There's some money being poured into those programs, certainly more than many D3 schools put into their facilities. It's a whole different landscape, one that we really have had no reason to examine.

For instance ... St. Ambrose in Davenport, Iowa. That stands up against any PSAC stadium I can think of.

There are a lot of NAIA schools in my area of the country. Some of the NAIA schools in the great northwest could slide right into being competitive schools in the GNAC.

[Mikefln]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Funny stat since you brought it up. I'm still not saying she should be payed the same as Flynn.....playing devils advocate.....making that clear since your feelings were hurt. Taking win percentage from the years you mentioned. VB is 128-73 ( your number) is a win percentage of .636. Wrestling is 58-36 and a win percentage of .617. That's funny since its your stat you wanted in there. Wrestling has a huge funding advantage to other psac schools. Next your gonna tell me how amazing it is that the Yankees are good every year.

Your problem is that you do not understand the sport of wrestling. It is not like any other sport. Dual win lose records actually mean little, it is about where do you finish in the conference and where do you finish in the Nation. Ohio St coach Ryan has gone on record a few times that he doesn't care about meets. He coached for the national tournament. While coach Ryan is defiantly more extreme than most coaches, that line of thinking is true in this sport. Not stating this to combat your arguments, but giving you insight as you stated you are not a wrestling guy and don't follow it.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

He must either have an axe to grind or some personal reason to be so consistently digging at wrestling. Tim Flynn's national resume at Edinboro:

Year NCAA Finish
1997-98 15th
1998-99 18th
1999-00 15th
2000-01 12th
2001-02 14th
2002-03 24th
2003-04 24th
2004-05 28th
2005-06 8th
2006-07 9th
2007-08 T21st
2008-09 6th
2009-10 16th
2010-11 T23rd
2011-12 17th
2012-13 14th
2013-14 5th
2014-15 3rd
2015-16 T32nd
2016-17 20th

[Mikefln]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

He must either have an axe to grind or some personal reason to be so consistently digging at wrestling. Tim Flynn's national resume at Edinboro:

Year NCAA Finish
1997-98 15th
1998-99 18th
1999-00 15th
2000-01 12th
2001-02 14th
2002-03 24th
2003-04 24th
2004-05 28th
2005-06 8th
2006-07 9th
2007-08 T21st
2008-09 6th
2009-10 16th
2010-11 T23rd
2011-12 17th
2012-13 14th
2013-14 5th
2014-15 3rd
2015-16 T32nd
2016-17 20th

D1 also going against Big 10/Big 12 schools and other major schools that the Volleyball team does not go against.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

D1 also going against Big 10/Big 12 schools and other major schools that the Volleyball team does not go against.

She's had her share of success: 10 trips to national playoffs over 22 seasons

[Mikefln]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

She's had her share of success: 10 trips to national playoffs over 22 seasons

Not saying she isn't successful, just stating that Edinboro goes up against the Power school of Penn State, Iowa, Ohio St, Oklahoma St, and competes against local schools Pitt and WVU. Those rankings you listed are against those type of schools. No disrespect to D2 or volleyball but they are nor competing against that type of field. They just are not. I am not a Boro grad I have no dog in this fight other than I am a wrestling fan and I respect what Boro accomplishes. In the past 12 years Flynn had five top 10 finishes and 2 top 5 finishes in D1. That is better than most other D1 wrestling programs not named Penn State, Iowa, Ohio St, Oklahoma St, Missouri, Minnesota, and Cornell for top 10 finishes. They are on par with Lehigh and Nebraska but wins tie breaker with more top 5 finishes. They Did better than other wrestling powers like Oklahoma, Arizona St, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Is there another athletic program in the entire PSAC that can say they can compete against those schools with those results? This year Lock Haven has a better team and they are traditionaly a strong team, but they pail in comparison to Edinboro when looking at program history. Again not saying that Volleyball coach is not successful but let not try and compare who is more impressive here.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

This year Lock Haven has a better team and they are traditionaly a strong team, but they pail in comparison to Edinboro when looking at program history.

Do you want to look at "history" or a certain epoch of history? That statement, taken literally, is not an informed statement.

"Pails (sp) in comparison to Edinboro...", give me a break. Nobody who truly knows the history of collegiate wrestling would make that statement, at least without qualifying it.