OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Excuse my lack of knowledge on the topic but who wrestles D1 and D2 in the PSAC?

I know UPJ is D2 with a strong program. Do they also max at the 9.9 scholarships or do they get less being D2?

Next big match can somebody drop a quick message? I'd live to attend one live.

You mentioned the EWL. Does that mean there isn't 'PSAC wrestling' per se but just PASSHE schools with wrestling programs?

If you want to see a great college wrestling meet you can watch the link below. It's last week's dual meet between Lock Haven and Cornell. Cornell won 20-18. Cornell has some spectacular wrestlers at 141, 184, and 197. They're all freshman. Also, the announcers and commentary is really good. After the pre-game show the wrestling actually starts at about 18:30 of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcjW7N1BUPk

For a live match this Saturday's EWL showdown at Clarion between Clarion and LHU should be a very competitive dual meet.

The PSAC tournament is a great tournament. It features four D1 teams and 4 or 5 Top 20 D2 teams (UPJ, Gannon, Mercyhurst, Kutztown and Shippensburg)

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

The HC of wrestling at Edinboro makes 137,500 currently.. with more on the way. And assistants that make about 64k and 18k. Interestingly, the boro AD makes 126k. Less than the wrestling coach. But theyre partners in running private wrestling camps on campus so maybe he makes up for it by taking a bigger cut of the camp money. It's definately in boths interests to keep Edinboro wrestling relevant. And Even with Iowa and Oklahoma st coming to Edinboro last season they had maybe 8k in attendance over 6 matches. Take those 2 matches out and the remaining 4 matches averaged about 800 each. So 220k in salaries for 8,000 tickets sold.

Schools like Ohio St. and Penn St. athletic department revenue mostly comes from football ticket sales. 100,000 tickets times 5-6 home games a year. They can support all the other sports. I looked and Michigan's wrestling coach (if what I found is accurate) makes 130,000. Michigan is ranked #4. South Dakota st. still a much bigger athletic dept. than edinboro. and is ranked #12. The HC makes about 130k. Edinboro is ranked #30 basically.

It's interesting that even Penn. St wrestling is reported to run at a loss.

The other psac d1 wrestling schools Lock Haven HC makes 81k. Clarion 71k. And Bloom about 65k.

With Edinboro's current financiall issues...wrestling might end up D2.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Jeez. I think he makes more than Joe Lombardi. I'd have to assume then he's the highest-paid coach, any sport, in the PSAC. Correct?

Curt Cignetti had a high number by PSAC standards before he left. I think it was in the upper $130s.

I wish they could find more money for a lot of the assistant coaches.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Some context on Tim Flynn:
- This is his 21st or 22nd season as head coach at Edinboro so that's 20+ years of raises
- He's won the conference 15 of those 20+ seasons
- Edinboro has gone 215-90-5 in that time
- We're only a few years removed from Edinboro finishing #3 in Division I
- Bruce is actually on the faculty contract rather than a manager or coach contract so he'll always make less.

Sure Flynn makes a lot of money but I don't believe there is a PSAC coach with that kind of success. They also know he could take any coaching job he wants. There are dozens of professors making nearly as much for teaching 8 class sections a year and don't bring students, money, or notoriety to Edinboro like the wrestling program. The only things at Edinboro that get Edinboro's name out there beyond NWPA are it's financial woes and past scandals.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Jeez. I think he makes more than Joe Lombardi. I'd have to assume then he's the highest-paid coach, any sport, in the PSAC. Correct?

Curt Cignetti had a high number by PSAC standards before he left. I think it was in the upper $130s.

I wish they could find more money for a lot of the assistant coaches.

Lombardi is the highest-paid PSAC coach at $158,477. The range here is insane. He makes three times as much as one PSAC West head coach. Average salary is $88,959.

Average PASSHE head football coach pay (excluding Cheyney & Mansfield) is $102,655. Range is $81,206-$135,289. 7 of 12 make $100,000+. Tortorella is #2.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I'd have to think that puts Bravado Joe near the top of D2 coaches in the country.

[IUP CRIMSON HAWKS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I'd have to think that puts Bravado Joe near the top of D2 coaches in the country.

He's certainly earned it! Two trips to the national title game and he seems to be a really good man who is well-liked throughout campus.

He runs a successful and high-profile D-II program, much like what Frank Cignetti Sr. did some years back. You have to pay those guys.

-

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

He's certainly earned it! Two trips to the national title game and he seems to be a really good man who is well-liked throughout campus.

He runs a successful and high-profile D-II program, much like what Frank Cignetti Sr. did some years back. You have to pay those guys.

-

No doubt ... and he's had many (yearly) chances to leave.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Some context on Tim Flynn:
- This is his 21st or 22nd season as head coach at Edinboro so that's 20+ years of raises
- He's won the conference 15 of those 20+ seasons
- Edinboro has gone 215-90-5 in that time
- We're only a few years removed from Edinboro finishing #3 in Division I
- Bruce is actually on the faculty contract rather than a manager or coach contract so he'll always make less.

Sure Flynn makes a lot of money but I don't believe there is a PSAC coach with that kind of success. They also know he could take any coaching job he wants. There are dozens of professors making nearly as much for teaching 8 class sections a year and don't bring students, money, or notoriety to Edinboro like the wrestling program. The only things at Edinboro that get Edinboro's name out there beyond NWPA are it's financial woes and past scandals.

I get getting raises over 20 years put him above the AD that doesn't get the same raises. But its still interesting. And winning the psac in wrestling isn't that impressive when you consider there are 4 schools and those schools pay their HC's half what edinboro does. Ediinboro's assistant basically gets paid like the other psac d1 HC's. And at Edinboro you have an Olympic gold medalist as AD to help use in recruiting.

In comparision to other small successful wrestling programs. Like a Cornell or Lehigh.....Lehigh is like 60k/ yr and Cornell is like 50k. Edinboro is 20-25k/yr....when your considering wrestling only has 9.9 scholarships....that's a lot of money out of pocket.

I don't see wrestling bringing students to Edinboro. They have 35 kids on the roster. 8,000 in total attendance over 6 matches. That's with Okla.St who was #1 at the time and Iowa. Not much money, notoriety or prestige in 8k in total attendance. Take out big name programs and they avg 800/match. As far as taking any job he wants. I heard he turned down PItt. But so did the Lehigh HC who won nat'l titles at pitt and still didn't want it as an alum. The S. Dakota St. guy supposedly turned more money down at PItt to stay. So a job like Pitt must be looked at as not very good. He's not leaving Edinboro as long as he can make 200k+yr with a boss as a camp partner. THe school isn't making money from wrestling being D1. No extra students from a wrestling program. They could win a Natl' title and it might as well be tennis as far as bringing in revenue or new students.

Football as D2 5-6 home games x 3000+ in attendance....is 18,000 for arguments sake over the same number of events. And that's without high profile schools like Iowa and Okla. St on campus. And that's 80-90 kids paying to go to school.
Wrestling could be d2 and be as productive for the University. Maybe more if you scare off the big contracts and pay a HC 65k to start. And still have 35 kids on the roster paying to go to school.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I get getting raises over 20 years put him above the AD that doesn't get the same raises. But its still interesting. And winning the psac in wrestling isn't that impressive when you consider there are 4 schools and those schools pay their HC's half what edinboro does. Ediinboro's assistant basically gets paid like the other psac d1 HC's. And at Edinboro you have an Olympic gold medalist as AD to help use in recruiting.

In comparision to other small successful wrestling programs. Like a Cornell or Lehigh.....Lehigh is like 60k/ yr and Cornell is like 50k. Edinboro is 20-25k/yr....when your considering wrestling only has 9.9 scholarships....that's a lot of money out of pocket.

I don't see wrestling bringing students to Edinboro. They have 35 kids on the roster. 8,000 in total attendance over 6 matches. That's with Okla.St who was #1 at the time and Iowa. Not much money, notoriety or prestige in 8k in total attendance. Take out big name programs and they avg 800/match. As far as taking any job he wants. I heard he turned down PItt. But so did the Lehigh HC who won nat'l titles at pitt and still didn't want it as an alum. The S. Dakota St. guy supposedly turned more money down at PItt to stay. So a job like Pitt must be looked at as not very good. He's not leaving Edinboro as long as he can make 200k+yr with a boss as a camp partner. THe school isn't making money from wrestling being D1. No extra students from a wrestling program. They could win a Natl' title and it might as well be tennis as far as bringing in revenue or new students.

Football as D2 5-6 home games x 3000+ in attendance....is 18,000 for arguments sake over the same number of events. And that's without high profile schools like Iowa and Okla. St on campus. And that's 80-90 kids paying to go to school.
Wrestling could be d2 and be as productive for the University. Maybe more if you scare off the big contracts and pay a HC 65k to start. And still have 35 kids on the roster paying to go to school.

I was citing EWL conference titles.

I'm not going to engage you any further on here because of your connection to this lawsuit. There's nothing I could explain or say that would move your position one inch.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Edinboro wrestling, in my view, is a unique situation. I think the success of the program benefits the university in terms of exposure/awareness, in some circles. On the other hand, Lock Haven and Cheyney got a lot of exposure from having long losing streaks in football. The college wrestling fan base is limited in scope. Fervent, but limited. It's questionable how much the wrestling team actually enhances the school's image, and you would have to compare it to the impact to other sports if funds were diverted from the wrestling program,

I digress. The unique aspect of Edinboro is that funds are being diverted to it yet there is little community and alumni support. Basically, Edinboro is great in wrestling and few Edinboro constituents care. If you compare the situation to a Lock Haven, also a unique situation for completely different reasons, the support from the community and alumni support the program. It's the fan interest that keeps it where it is. At Edinboro, I suspect it's more of a zero sum game where wrestling is usurping funds from other things at the university. The reality is Boro's success benefits the people running the program. There isn't much trickle down effect.

Personally, I hate to see any D1 wrestling program get cut back or eliminated. The sport has been decimated enough. But the situation at Edinboro will have to be left up to Edinboro itself. The above comments really just restate what everybody in the wrestling community knows.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Edinboro Men's Basketball: Avg. home attendance this season: 304
Edinboro Women's Basketball: Avg. home attendance this season: 235

Combined that's less than wrestling is drawing. And, truth be told, those aren't really separate numbers. They are likely combined numbers because when you buy a ticket you get both games -- meaning 235 aren't buying tickets for the women and then another 304 are buying for the men. So, use the 304 for the average gate on game night. Of that, probably 50-75 are students getting in free. At those numbers, Edinboro basketball is certainly not making money.

Edinboro football averaged 3,162 this past season.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

It's interesting that even Penn. St wrestling is reported to run at a loss.

"Interesting" is a good word for it. I think that has more to do with athletics department accounting than anything else. You can get a ticket for this Saturday's PSU-Iowa match in the Bryce Jordan Center (capacity 15, 261) from a third party vendor online for a low of $123 up to a high of $200. The match is a sellout. That's 15, 261 tickets plus SRO sales. They are bringing in millions from dual meet attendance. Plus, I think they get a cut of revenue from the Big Ten Network (BTN). Then there is revenue from wrestling-specific memorabilia which I am sure is not counted in their balance sheet. It's only 9.9 scholarships, travel, and the other expenses so they are coming out ahead. Oh, well there is the reported 7 figure salary for the head coach, too. It's a matter of time until pennlive demands to know what Sanderson makes. For people who want to know. Remember, pennlive spent years going after JoePa's salary and then it turned out he made $1.5 mil., much less than most major college coaches.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

"Interesting" is a good word for it. I think that has more to do with athletics department accounting than anything else. You can get a ticket for this Saturday's PSU-Iowa match in the Bryce Jordan Center (capacity 15, 261) from a third party vendor online for a low of $123 up to a high of $200. The match is a sellout. That's 15, 261 tickets plus SRO sales. They are bringing in millions from dual meet attendance. Plus, I think they get a cut of revenue from the Big Ten Network (BTN). Then there is revenue from wrestling-specific memorabilia which I am sure is not counted in their balance sheet. It's only 9.9 scholarships, travel, and the other expenses so they are coming out ahead. Oh, well there is the reported 7 figure salary for the head coach, too. It's a matter of time until pennlive demands to know what Sanderson makes. For people who want to know. Remember, pennlive spent years going after JoePa's salary and then it turned out he made $1.5 mil., much less than most major college coaches.

Wow.

[Mikefln]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I'm trying to stay out of this one given my role at Edinboro and the personal connection of some who post and lurk on here - but looking at it objectively, this case raises an interesting question: should "equal pay for equal work" consider the profile of a program at a university? For example, should all head coaches make the same amount of money regardless of sport, revenue, profile, fundraising, etc.? We can think and say what we want on here but a federal court could possibly decide that.

A Federal court should not have any say in that. There are 32 starting QBs in the NFL all making way different incomes for the same job as a starting NFL QB. If you want to argue that each team is an independent business so that argument doesn't work. Ok then most teams have 3 QBs on the team and they make different incomes. My point is there is no such thing as equal pay for equal work. Pay is determined by 3 things. 1) ability 2) need of said ability at time of negotiation and finally 3) negotiation ability. I have the same title as 12 other people in my office and who know how many people with that title company wide. None of us are paid the same and none of us does "equal work". This whole "Equal Pay for Equal Work" is a rouse spoken from people trying to manipulate the system for their own gain. It is then the rally cry of the masses who lack the common sense to realize just how stupid and unrealistic said comment really is.

Why do women generally get paid less than men? I would venture to guess it is number 3, negotiation ability. From my own experiences and my own experiences only, men are more willing to fight harder/hold out for a higher wage and men are more likely to ask for/demand a raise.