OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

[Mikefln]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

11 programs have won wrestling nat'l titles. 5 of those have won 1x. So 6 programs have basically won all but 5 wrestling nat'l titles.

Only the Big ten has a full conference of wrestling - out of the "power 5" conferences. ACC 6 "full" members, Pac 12 - 3 full members, big 12 - 4, SEC -0 ??.

Only 9.9 scholarships and not a lot of big program interest. Big ten HC salary avg. was 150k as of 2016. I guess that's some of why a psac athletic program can compete at the d1 level. Probably basically impossible in any other sport

This is one of the reasons why wrestling fans are sensitive to the idea of de-funding wrestling programs. It may be a coincidence but since Title IX became law, wrestling programs have been dropping. Out of your Power 5 conferences, these schools used to have wrestling programs that do not today, could not look up them all so this is very incomplete.

ACC- Clemson, Syracuse, Boston College, and we will include Notre Dame since they are in the ACC in all sports but football.
Pac 12- Oregon, UCLA, Washington, Colorado, Arizona,
Big 12- they lost teams to other conferences
SEC- Missouri has a team but as the only school with a team in the SEC they are I believe they wrestling in the MAC. I think Tennessee has a team at some point.

As a sport as a whole this is from Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristid.../#2ff91bba2fcc

"101 men's wrestling programs have been dropped since 1988-89, including 41 at the Division I level." and "Wrestling has experienced the largest loss of any men's sport across all three divisions, with tennis coming in second at a loss of 65 programs. Men's gymnastics, often discussed alongside wrestling as an endangered species was down 38 programs over the same time period."

When you see numbers like that I am sure you can appreciate why fans of the sport are sensitive to even the smallest threats against de-funding the sport.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I asked quite a while ago, do we know the definition of Tiering & do all of the Tier 1 sports fall in line with the definition?

If you actually read the lawsuit, wrestling, Bruce, & some athletic administrator seem to be the target. I read the thing 3 times, she only seems to be asking for money, nothing to help her program? It was actually entertaining, her playing accomplishments were more prevalent than her coaching accomplishments.

It seems as if the ask, is only about her getting paid?

Go ask your boss about the definition of the Tier system.

As far as coaching accomplishments. VB won the west in 15' and made the sweet 16 in 2016. But seemed to get similar small raises as a sub .500 mens tier 1 coach.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Go ask your boss about the definition of the Tier system.

As far as coaching accomplishments. VB won the west in 15' and made the sweet 16 in 2016. But seemed to get similar small raises as a sub .500 mens tier 1 coach.

Not all raises are merit-based. Sometimes they're market adjustments - and in college athletics you compare yourself with conference peers not the ones down the hallway. The Edinboro VB coach is the 3rd-highest paid women's volleyball coach in the PSAC and makes 125% the conference average (obviously this doesn't include the private schools or UPJ). The Edinboro men's basketball coach is nowhere one of the lowest paid coaches and in his fifth season is still making below PSAC average for a men's basketball coach. So its possible that the men's basketball coach received a bump in pay in spite of the team record. I'm not picking sides - just illustrating the comparison that you used. I don't understand the "tier" system that is a hinge of this complaint. I had never heard of it until it hit the news. So I can't say if salaries are supposed to be similar across tiers or some other funding.

[VoiceOfReason]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Go ask your boss about the definition of the Tier system.

As far as coaching accomplishments. VB won the west in 15' and made the sweet 16 in 2016. But seemed to get similar small raises as a sub .500 mens tier 1 coach.

My boss? If I worked there, or my boss knew the definition, why would I keep asking?

I'm not employed at any institution of higher learning, I am a taxpayer with access to the internet. Everything we are speaking of, is a matter of public record. All one needs to do is know where to look.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Not all raises are merit-based. Sometimes they're market adjustments - and in college athletics you compare yourself with conference peers not the ones down the hallway. The Edinboro VB coach is the 3rd-highest paid women's volleyball coach in the PSAC and makes 125% the conference average (obviously this doesn't include the private schools or UPJ). The Edinboro men's basketball coach is nowhere one of the lowest paid coaches and in his fifth season is still making below PSAC average for a men's basketball coach. So its possible that the men's basketball coach received a bump in pay in spite of the team record. I'm not picking sides - just illustrating the comparison that you used. I don't understand the "tier" system that is a hinge of this complaint. I had never heard of it until it hit the news. So I can't say if salaries are supposed to be similar across tiers or some other funding.

I didn't see market adjustment in the collective bargaining agreement but I skimmed it really. I saw up to 2.5% based on year end evaluations and a merit pool. One thing that's interesting with the merit pool and year end eval's is wrestling got the similar raises on years theyre .500 as years theyre 3rd nationally. And they are basically double other psac d1's. VB wins the west and makes the sweet 16 and gets similar raises to sub .500 basketball. So I don't understand the whole process really either.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

My boss? If I worked there, or my boss knew the definition, why would I keep asking?

I'm not employed at any institution of higher learning, I am a taxpayer with access to the internet. Everything we are speaking of, is a matter of public record. All one needs to do is know where to look.

I realize the lawsuit it public info.

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

don't understand the "tier" system that is a hinge of this complaint. I had never heard of it until it hit the news. So I can't say if salaries are supposed to be similar across tiers or some other funding.

I believe IUP has a "tier" system, too. I can't find any references online about it but I have read about it before. They may not call it the same thing. It could be called something like "preferred sports" or something like that but at IUP I believe it consists of football, men's and women's basketball, and another women's sport (could be volleyball). These are programs where there is an added emphasis on competitiveness, striving to win championships, etc. If my mind is not playing tricks on me on this (pretty sure it's correct) I would also think a "tier" system exists at other PSAC schools, too.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

You are correct. IUP was very open about it. There was an article some time back that said they identified sports they wanted to compete on the national level. Others on the regional level. And, yet, others on the conference level. The coin was appropriated accordingly.

Put it this way: Men's basketball is getting Rolls Royce treatment. Baseball is getting Chevy Aveo treatment.

[VoiceOfReason]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I can't quite figure Tiering. ZERO chance IUP VB is "preferred" or "Tier 1"

Some interesting facts though.... Boro's MBB coach is paid 10th of 14 HCs, WR obviously 1 of 4, WBB 1 of 14, VB 3 of 13. FB is 10 of 13

So I even have less of an idea as to what Tiering means?

http://pennwatch.pa.gov/employees/Pa...-Salaries.aspx

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I can't quite figure Tiering. ZERO chance IUP VB is "preferred" or "Tier 1"

Some interesting facts though.... Boro's MBB coach is paid 10th of 14 HCs, WR obviously 1 of 4, WBB 1 of 14, VB 3 of 13. FB is 10 of 13

So I even have less of an idea as to what Tiering means?

http://pennwatch.pa.gov/employees/Pa...-Salaries.aspx

What's to figure out? It's referred to in the lawsuit so I don't think it would be imaginary. IUPbigIndians and I are aware of a similar arrangement at IUP. You don't have to believe us; however, we follow IUP athletics pretty close. Tiering is a preferred status for specific sports to win and achieve more visibility and notoriety for the university. It's not that hard to understand.

[VoiceOfReason]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

What's to figure out? It's referred to in the lawsuit so I don't think it would be imaginary. IUPbigIndians and I are aware of a similar arrangement at IUP. You don't have to believe us; however, we follow IUP athletics pretty close. Tiering is a preferred status for specific sports to win and achieve more visibilityand notoriety for the university. It's not that hard to understand.

I'm not arguing with you or IUP, and I think Tiering is defined by each school? My point was if Boro MBB is Tier 1, why is the coach paid so low, to the other 3 Tier 1 coaches? The same as IUP VB, is my point? I can't find black & white criteria anywhere, so each institution must define it on their own, is my best guess?

[iupgroundhog]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I'm not arguing with you or IUP, and I think Tiering is defined by each school? My point was if Boro MBB is Tier 1, why is the coach paid so low, to the other 3 Tier 1 coaches? The same as IUP VB, is my point? I can't find black & white criteria anywhere, so each institution must define it on their own, is my best guess?

I don't know anything about it either but I think it's the same idea from school to school but each school has freedom to implement it in their own way. I haven't taken the time to read the lawsuit but I seem to remember from the press release this has been out there being reevaluated for 3 years with no decisions rendered. It's hard to comprehend what Edinboro was doing and it seems to add fuel to the fire for anyone who disagrees with the administration.

[EdinboroFB]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I'd guess MBB takes a hit to make up for the high salary of Wrestling. To even out somewhat the mens tier 1's to the womens. Its probably compared in house not so much to psac avg's for each sport. Since wrestling is so high and MBB would be at the low end of the psac. But also knowing the first passhe study said WVB case has merit maybe the whole thing it out of whack and that's why there is no way to possibly interpret the numbers.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

Finally got a chance to read the official lawsuit complaint. First, I sure hope that any accusations of professional misconduct that are found to be true are fixed immediately. Second, I don't agree with the methodology. I think its a hard sell to say that "Tier 1" coaches should be paid comparably to each other or comparable to their PSAC counterparts. Should a successful women's volleyball coach (2 staff, 18 coaches) be paid as much as the football coach (7 staff, 2 GAs, 75 students)? Lastly, including misconduct accusations about coworkers totally unrelated to the complaint sure as heck won't fix the feelings of alienation in the department.

Unfortunately the complaint doesn't really define the "tier" status. It simply describes "Tier 1" being selected for being the most competitive within the conference and thus getting preferred funding and salaries. I don't know how the Edinboro women's VB budget compares to others in the conference. I don't think its fair to compare funding between sports at the same school unless we're comparing men's and women's of the same sport.

I love Edinboro and want this to be resolved but holy crap I don't think I would endure the misery described in this complaint. At some point I would have just put all my extra energy into getting the hell out of the environment I didn't want to do. But that's me. Fight or flight.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

I'd guess MBB takes a hit to make up for the high salary of Wrestling. To even out somewhat the mens tier 1's to the womens. Its probably compared in house not so much to psac avg's for each sport. Since wrestling is so high and MBB would be at the low end of the psac. But also knowing the first passhe study said WVB case has merit maybe the whole thing it out of whack and that's why there is no way to possibly interpret the numbers.

I actually say that football is the one taking the hit due to wrestling. I don't know how many other PSAC departments "tier" their sports but among those that do I wonder if any of the DI wrestling schools put wrestling above football. I was shocked to see Edinboro football be described as "Tier 2".