OT: D1

[IUP24]

Bishop Guilfoyle has had runs of really good athletic success in multiple sports. And they are a bad example of recruiting from small schools if that’s what you are getting at. BG is the only school in Altoona other than Altoona High School (which to my knowledge is one of the larger districts in PA). It’s also the only school between Altoona and Hollidaysburg (another large district). So most of the students they are pulling from are from either of those two large districts.

The point at a macro level is that the PIAA competition rules were supposed to handicap private schools as they bring kids into their school and then join athletic teams.

And to be fair, I think there’s different types of “recruiting” within the Catholic/private school conversation. They are not all the same. I just don’t think Aliquippa should be playing 5A football because of a transient student body. And listening to Mike White from the Post-Gazette explain how PIAA rules tabulated “transfers” for Aliquippa, you’ll feel the same.

[IUP24]

I can’t believe it took this long for one of our eastern PA friends to say that districts should just merge and disappear.

[IUPNation]

I don't usually either but it's been on the radio here 24-7.

I didn’t know Bishop Guilfoyle was a foosball powerhouse.

This outcry only strengthens the notion that there needs to be massive school district consolidation across a swath of Pennsylvania. There are too many dinky public schools. If Aliquippa is a struggling town and the school is small and below average educational wise, it should be merged into another district to boost up the education product and better fund sports.

People need to get over not having their town school. They are merging universities, they can merge high schools for the same reasons. My high school is long gone. It was merged twice and the only thing left is the old school flag hanging in the lobby of Pope John Paul 2 High School out in Royersford. My parents small high school got merged into Upper Merion in the 60’s when schools were packed with students.

There should not be a plethora of 1 and 2A schools. It makes no economic sense. There are 42 schools districts in Allegheny County with its 1.2 million population. There are 21 school districts in Montgomery County with its 860,000 population. I don’t think Allegheny County needs twice the school districts with only 350000 more people and one of those 42 is Pittsburgh city..so it’s 41 districts for its inner ring suburbs. That’s beyond crazy. So listening to this whining about these tiny high schools just sounds stupid to those of us in Southeastern Pennsylvania where we have big districts with big schools who hold their own with the few Catholic Schools who recruit.

Montgomery County - 21 School districts for a population of 860000
Bucks County - 13 schools districts for a population of 646000
Delaware County - 15 school districts for a population of 573000
Chester County - 12 school districts for a population 534000

Allegheny County - 42 school districts for a population of 1.2 million
Westmoreland county - 19 school districts for a poplation of 350000
Washington County - 15 school districts for a population of 209000
Beaver County - 14 school districts for a population of 168000
Butler County - 8 school districts for a population of 193000
Indiana County - 7 school districts for a population of 83000

The only county in the Yinzerland that seems to get it is Butler and aren't they the most stable county in the region...especially school wise?

Consolidation is needed.......there needs to be less 1A and 2A public schools are more 3A to 5A schools west of the Susquehanna and north of 78.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Well I didn’t know..I don’t really pay attention to high school sports.

I don't usually either but it's been on the radio here 24-7.

[IUPNation]

The one the Pope would like.

Well I didn’t know..I don’t really pay attention to high school sports.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

The six classifications helped a bit. If you recall the old 4A level had schools with 300 kids in a grade and schools with 800 kids in a grade.

And, ironically, those with the massive enrollments typically stunk (Butler, Hempfield, etc.)

I think I recall seeing Butler is coming back to the WPIAL. Recall they jumped ship after getting hammered in 6A.

This whole Aliquippa thing reminds me of when the WPIAL essentially ran Farrell off.

[Fightingscot82]

That brings up another point I think about a lot. Grouping schools together by enrollment makes a lot of sense, in theory. But there are so many blowouts these days, and blowouts are terrible for the players and spectators alike. Not to mention that it's impossible to build a program if you're dealing with mismatches week in and week out. I think more conferences should be considering competitiveness when grouping schools into divisions, and not just adhering to the class structure.

The example for our area is the new alignment for the East Penn Conference. The EPC West division will see Allen and Dieruff, two struggling urban programs, grouped with the suburban giants of Parkland and Emmaus, plus Central Catholic and Whitehall. Those two teams will get blown out by 40+ points every time they play anyone else but each other. Just bad, short-sighted decision making, but it's considered "fair" in the eyes of the playoffs.

The argument might be that it gives some teams an easier path to the playoffs. My rebuttal: so what? The weaker teams will get weeded out in the early rounds, like always. Better to have teams feel like they have a chance during the regular season, instead of being completely demoralized by week 5.

The six classifications helped a bit. If you recall the old 4A level had schools with 300 kids in a grade and schools with 800 kids in a grade.

[EastStroud13]

It won't be a cakewalk, but you named the best 5A schools. There's a whole lot more that are not good programs - Plum, Kiski, Shaler, Fox Chapel, etc.

Worst-case they may go 6-4 in the regular season.

That, of course, assumes they are healthy (which is a huge topic in all this).

That brings up another point I think about a lot. Grouping schools together by enrollment makes a lot of sense, in theory. But there are so many blowouts these days, and blowouts are terrible for the players and spectators alike. Not to mention that it's impossible to build a program if you're dealing with mismatches week in and week out. I think more conferences should be considering competitiveness when grouping schools into divisions, and not just adhering to the class structure.

The example for our area is the new alignment for the East Penn Conference. The EPC West division will see Allen and Dieruff, two struggling urban programs, grouped with the suburban giants of Parkland and Emmaus, plus Central Catholic and Whitehall. Those two teams will get blown out by 40+ points every time they play anyone else but each other. Just bad, short-sighted decision making, but it's considered "fair" in the eyes of the playoffs.

The argument might be that it gives some teams an easier path to the playoffs. My rebuttal: so what? The weaker teams will get weeded out in the early rounds, like always. Better to have teams feel like they have a chance during the regular season, instead of being completely demoralized by week 5.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I think this is when you’ll see it catch up. They also are losing their best player, Cam Lindsey, to graduation (not saying they don’t have others, but he was their best).

Schools like Penn Hills and Gateway are routinely producing D1 level players. Bethel Park and Peters Township have both been on a tear at that level and have recently been generating FBS recruits. Then of course you have Pine-Richland. I just think this is a different animal altogether. They may have equal numbers of high-end players, but I’m not sure the depth matches what these large districts are going to send out on the field.

Numbers are down at a lot of schools. And many places, even at 4A, are dressing freshman on Friday nights in the event they need bodies. That isn’t really happening at 5A schools.

It won't be a cakewalk, but you named the best 5A schools. There's a whole lot more that are not good programs - Plum, Kiski, Shaler, Fox Chapel, etc.

Worst-case they may go 6-4 in the regular season.

That, of course, assumes they are healthy (which is a huge topic in all this).

[IUP24]

Funny thing is Aliquippa will destroy most of the 5A schools next year.

I think this is when you’ll see it catch up. They also are losing their best player, Cam Lindsey, to graduation (not saying they don’t have others, but he was their best).

Schools like Penn Hills and Gateway are routinely producing D1 level players. Bethel Park and Peters Township have both been on a tear at that level and have recently been generating FBS recruits. Then of course you have Pine-Richland. I just think this is a different animal altogether. They may have equal numbers of high-end players, but I’m not sure the depth matches what these large districts are going to send out on the field.

Numbers are down at a lot of schools. And many places, even at 4A, are dressing freshman on Friday nights in the event they need bodies. That isn’t really happening at 5A schools.

[IUP24]

The enrollment calculations are based on the number of boys in grades 10-12, so I'm unsure if they were accurate. But its also possible for enrollment to fluctuate greatly in a district like that. People move in and out all the time.

My issue with the "win and move up" rule is that there has to be an end to it and it’s not fair to smaller schools. Eventually Aliquippa's run will end and boys will get hurt because of it. Eventually they'll be a 2A roster with kids playing both ways going up against a 4A or 5A roster subbing in left and right then fresh 10th graders to play in the 4th quarter. There's no move-up option for 6A. What happens if North Allegheny becomes a beast and wins six consecutive PIAA titles? There's no upward move then to make it fair to everyone else. I think schools should be allowed to play up a level if that suits them. Playing up two levels is really pushing it.

If I do recall, the main reason Aliquippa wanted to originally play 3A football under the 6 classifications was because of them losing a lot of their traditional teams on their schedule, particularly Beaver Falls. In the first iteration, I believe Beaver Falls was classified into 3A. Aliquippa also said they wanted to play other Beaver Country schools like Central Valley and Beaver who would be at that level. So that was the initial reason as to why they volunteered to play up a level.

[IUP24]

The Pens suck and the Yinzers are done. This is the perfect local media story for the talk shows (it's all they are talking about).


It is a juicy topic.

I’m uniquely intrigued. I don’t think I can ever recall a story like this.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

The enrollment calculations are based on the number of boys in grades 10-12, so I'm unsure if they were accurate. But its also possible for enrollment to fluctuate greatly in a district like that. People move in and out all the time.

My issue with the "win and move up" rule is that there has to be an end to it and its not fair to smaller schools. Eventually Aliquippa's run will end and boys will get hurt because of it. Eventually they'll be a 2A roster with kids playing both ways going up against a 4A or 5A roster subbing in left and right then fresh 10th graders to play in the 4th quarter. There's no move-up option for 6A. What happens if North Allegheny becomes a beast and wins six consecutive PIAA titles? There's no upward move then to make it fair to everyone else. I think schools should be allowed to play up a level if that suits them. Playing up two levels is really pushing it.

Funny thing is Aliquippa will destroy most of the 5A schools next year.

[Fightingscot82]

It is interesting to consider a few ponderables here...

1) If Aliquippa simply played in the classification in which they should have been playing in, they would have been bumped up to 4A (There's been incorrect information stated here about them being a 1A school - Aliquippa's enrollment is that of a 2A school, not 1A. And prior to the expansion to 6 classifications, they were always a 2A school. That is why them and Clairton never played while both programs were really humming).

2) Many are saying that this conversation is racial in nature. I don't necessarily believe that. Aliquippa and Steel-High are two predominantly black communities. I don't know enough about Steel-High, but Aliquippa is obviously a very socio-economically depressed area. That said, Wyomissing is a very small town, but it's a pretty affluent, mostly white, community from what I've read. Wyomissing was really, really strong while I was in high school, which is when I learned that was where Taylor Swift was from and where she attended elementary and middle school.

3) This topic has emerged very recently, if you are a 6A school, what is the punishment for recruiting, or taking in an insane number of transfers for athletic purposes? What is the upward relegation in that scenario? Do you become a member of the President's Athletic Conference and play W&J every year? So when you consider what's happening to Aliquippa, why wouldn't you recruit with a wide net like some programs do if you are 6A?

It seems like the intent of the rules with how they were created have negatively impacted the schools they were attempting to protect. Because make no mistake... The rules within the 6 classification system were designed to protect schools and communities like Aliquippa, not Bishop Guilfoyle.

The enrollment calculations are based on the number of boys in grades 10-12, so I'm unsure if they were accurate. But its also possible for enrollment to fluctuate greatly in a district like that. People move in and out all the time.

My issue with the "win and move up" rule is that there has to be an end to it and its not fair to smaller schools. Eventually Aliquippa's run will end and boys will get hurt because of it. Eventually they'll be a 2A roster with kids playing both ways going up against a 4A or 5A roster subbing in left and right then fresh 10th graders to play in the 4th quarter. There's no move-up option for 6A. What happens if North Allegheny becomes a beast and wins six consecutive PIAA titles? There's no upward move then to make it fair to everyone else. I think schools should be allowed to play up a level if that suits them. Playing up two levels is really pushing it.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

It is interesting to consider a few ponderables here...

1) If Aliquippa simply played in the classification in which they should have been playing in, they would have been bumped up to 4A (There's been incorrect information stated here about them being a 1A school - Aliquippa's enrollment is that of a 2A school, not 1A. And prior to the expansion to 6 classifications, they were always a 2A school. That is why them and Clairton never played while both programs were really humming).

2) Many are saying that this conversation is racial in nature. I don't necessarily believe that. Aliquippa and Steel-High are two predominantly black communities. I don't know enough about Steel-High, but Aliquippa is obviously a very socio-economically depressed area. That said, Wyomissing is a very small town, but it's a pretty affluent, mostly white, community from what I've read. Wyomissing was really, really strong while I was in high school, which is when I learned that was where Taylor Swift was from and where she attended elementary and middle school.

3) This topic has emerged very recently, if you are a 6A school, what is the punishment for recruiting, or taking in an insane number of transfers for athletic purposes? What is the upward relegation in that scenario? Do you become a member of the President's Athletic Conference and play W&J every year? So when you consider what's happening to Aliquippa, why wouldn't you recruit with a wide net like some programs do if you are 6A?

It seems like the intent of the rules with how they were created have negatively impacted the schools they were attempting to protect. Because make no mistake... The rules within the 6 classification system were designed to protect schools and communities like Aliquippa, not Bishop Guilfoyle.

The Pens suck and the Yinzers are done. This is the perfect local media story for the talk shows (it's all they are talking about).


It is a juicy topic.