PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

You live in Allegheny County right? It's the poster child of the need for consolidation.

It has 1.2 million people and 43 school districts. Factor out the city...and it's still 900,000 people and 42 districts

The nearest county in population is Montgomery with 850,000 residents being served by 23 school districts...with Bryn Athyn SD not operating any schools..public students not going to the church school go to neighboring districts for school. Montgomery has almost the same population as suburban Pittsburgh and has almost half of the districts

You mean to say there isn't any way to cut the number of districts in Allegheny County in half that will take pressure off taxpayers and improve the quality of education in struggling areas?

This isn't about the North Allegheny, Upper St Clair and Mt Lebanons of the world...they are fine...but why does all those Mon River Valley towns keep trying to go about it on their own? Pride? Having those crappy schools only makes the town's fate even worse....

I think your last point about the state needing to do some uniformity is crucial. That should be part of the bill as should be how state funding goes across the board. Relying on local property taxes is why so many of these districts can't do anything. There is no way Chester/Upland SD will ever improve because the City of Chester is stuck in the mud economically. Better educated kids means a better community over the long run to break the dysfunction.

I'm not saying it won't work. There's history with good consolidations - Armstrong is going well and so is Central Valley in Beaver County. The behind the scenes political work is going to be a lot of work and savings are always going to be negligible.

[IUPNation]

Merger & consolidation doesn't save much money and I doubt it will increase student achievement. Instead of paying 5 superintendents at the market rate for 2,500 student school districts, they'll have to pay the market rate for a superintendent of a 10,000 student school district. Larger and more complex will also require more administrators to coordinate and supervise curriculum and special services for different levels if they don't already exist. 5 athletic directors, too. They can't merge custodial positions.

The major obstacle will be teacher contracts. Pennsylvania doesn't have standard teacher contracts like some neighboring states, so you'll have to consolidate a handful of different contracts with different end dates, salary tables, benefits packages, etc. But it could bring more uniformity from district to district. There's a $15k range in starting salary just in the districts surrounding where I live.

You live in Allegheny County right? It's the poster child of the need for consolidation.

It has 1.2 million people and 43 school districts. Factor out the city...and it's still 900,000 people and 42 districts

The nearest county in population is Montgomery with 850,000 residents being served by 23 school districts...with Bryn Athyn SD not operating any schools..public students not going to the church school go to neighboring districts for school. Montgomery has almost the same population as suburban Pittsburgh and has almost half of the districts

You mean to say there isn't any way to cut the number of districts in Allegheny County in half that will take pressure off taxpayers and improve the quality of education in struggling areas?

This isn't about the North Allegheny, Upper St Clair and Mt Lebanons of the world...they are fine...but why does all those Mon River Valley towns keep trying to go about it on their own? Pride? Having those crappy schools only makes the town's fate even worse....

I think your last point about the state needing to do some uniformity is crucial. That should be part of the bill as should be how state funding goes across the board. Relying on local property taxes is why so many of these districts can't do anything. There is no way Chester/Upland SD will ever improve because the City of Chester is stuck in the mud economically. Better educated kids means a better community over the long run to break the dysfunction.

[boatcapt]

But it needs to be done. All of those tiny districts in the Yinzerlands do not make any sense. What worked for 1955 is not going to work in 2025.

Indiana County should have one district with multiple high schools. You don’t need all those admins for a county with a small
population.

I do agree. Lived near Little Washington when my son was in HS. He had the opportunity to attend and graduate from what was supposedly the smallest school district in PA. While he had great friends, great memories and a good basic education, I always felt he should be getting more for the amount of school taxes we paid (among the highest in the state). I on the other hand attended a mega HS in Maryland and I can attest to the cold socialist tone they bring when they focus on shoving the most students through the "education process" as efficiently as possible. It would be nice if they could come up with a happy median but the gov REALLY doesn't do that very well!!

[Ship69]

But it needs to be done. All of those tiny districts in the Yinzerlands do not make any sense. What worked for 1955 is not going to work in 2025.

Indiana County should have one district with multiple high schools. You don’t need all those admins for a county with a small
population.

There surely will be savings to be had in some cases. But I worked for a used textbook company many years back, and some school districts in Pa. are unbelievably isolated, especially in areas such as the northern tier. You might save on administration, but having a centralized high school or middle school would be difficult due to transportation issues, so you'd still have a lot of small schools. Pa., of course, actually started consolidating well back into the '50s. Our Waynesboro School District was a consolidation of Waynesboro with two small township districts, but the distances for relatively close. When I started attending Mechanicsburg, it had only been about four years since the Mechanicsburg district had split into Mechanicsburg and Cumberland Valley. While school populations were relatively even then, they made the mistake of assigning the huge majority of undeveloped land to Cumberland Valley, so that CV is now three times the size of Mechanicsburg and growing so rapidly that it can barely keep up.

I agree that the rural areas in western Pa., where enrollments have fallen off the table, need a look. It will be complicated and there are a lot of factors to consider, plus the usual pushback you'll get from people who identify with their local schools.

[Fightingscot82]

But it needs to be done. All of those tiny districts in the Yinzerlands do not make any sense. What worked for 1955 is not going to work in 2025.

Indiana County should have one district with multiple high schools. You don’t need all those admins for a county with a small
population.

Merger & consolidation doesn't save much money and I doubt it will increase student achievement. Instead of paying 5 superintendents at the market rate for 2,500 student school districts, they'll have to pay the market rate for a superintendent of a 10,000 student school district. Larger and more complex will also require more administrators to coordinate and supervise curriculum and special services for different levels if they don't already exist. 5 athletic directors, too. They can't merge custodial positions.

The major obstacle will be teacher contracts. Pennsylvania doesn't have standard teacher contracts like some neighboring states, so you'll have to consolidate a handful of different contracts with different end dates, salary tables, benefits packages, etc. But it could bring more uniformity from district to district. There's a $15k range in starting salary just in the districts surrounding where I live.

[IUPNation]

Rep Scott's proposal (not even a filed piece of legislation) is to study consolidation. Probably take several years to get the study committee selected and get preliminary results. Then another few years to get the final data, debate various methods of reorganizing, and draft a final report. Then at least a year of debate in the state legislature before finally voting one way or the other. Then, assuming it passes, probably a four or five year transition phase.

Bottom line, maybe current 6th graders are affected but more likely current 1st graders!!!

But it needs to be done. All of those tiny districts in the Yinzerlands do not make any sense. What worked for 1955 is not going to work in 2025.

Indiana County should have one district with multiple high schools. You don’t need all those admins for a county with a small
population.

[boatcapt]

A lot of the rural school districts will be impacted, as will quite a few in and around Allegheny County, but most school districts in the collar counties around Philadelphia shouldn't be impacted dramatically (though I'm sure Jenkintown and the Bristols might be the exceptions in the Philadelphia area - come to think of it, there are probably a couple of districts in Delaware County which could stand to merge as well).

Rep Scott's proposal (not even a filed piece of legislation) is to study consolidation. Probably take several years to get the study committee selected and get preliminary results. Then another few years to get the final data, debate various methods of reorganizing, and draft a final report. Then at least a year of debate in the state legislature before finally voting one way or the other. Then, assuming it passes, probably a four or five year transition phase.

Bottom line, maybe current 6th graders are effected but more likely current 1st graders!!!

[ctrabs74]

Finally..somebody in Harrisburg with some sense.

School district consolidation is long overdue.

https://vista.today/2025/06/greg-sco...box=1749827904

A lot of the rural school districts will be impacted, as will quite a few in and around Allegheny County, but most school districts in the collar counties around Philadelphia shouldn't be impacted dramatically (though I'm sure Jenkintown and the Bristols might be the exceptions in the Philadelphia area - come to think of it, there are probably a couple of districts in Delaware County which could stand to merge as well).

[IUPNation]

Finally..somebody in Harrisburg with some sense.

School district consolidation is long overdue.

https://vista.today/2025/06/greg-sco...box=1749827904

[boatcapt]

Just admit that you are a mistrusting loon. Consultants can't be trusted. The government can't be trusted. Nonprofits can't be trusted. You'd be a great character on the X Files.

The Penn State report is brutal and honest. Penn State's branch campus situation is so similar to PASSHE. They overbuilt regional campuses and most are now located in communities with nonexistent birth rates and rusting economies. Academically, they are far too general to distinguish themselves, rely too much on impersonal online classes, and don't offer much to their communities other than jobs. When you overbuild for decades, there are looming facilities lifecycle needs that they can't afford. Nearly every campus operates at a deficit that has to be absorbed by the mothership. The best response would be the nuclear option and nobody in their right mind would bring that upon their self. Only 2 or 3 campuses out of 20+ are viable and only one or two are truly distinctive.

The PASSHE mergers have shown that you can't trim your way out of financial issues caused by piss poor execution of bad plans.

As a former government bureaucrat who became a consultant for 10+ years who now works for a not for profit, I think I understand the processes of the three pretty well. These three groups are primarily paid based on the quantity and weight of the reports they prepare.

[Fightingscot82]

Non profit staff...even better.

Just admit that you are a mistrusting loon. Consultants can't be trusted. The government can't be trusted. Nonprofits can't be trusted. You'd be a great character on the X Files.

The Penn State report is brutal and honest. Penn State's branch campus situation is so similar to PASSHE. They overbuilt regional campuses and most are now located in communities with nonexistent birth rates and rusting economies. Academically, they are far too general to distinguish themselves, rely too much on impersonal online classes, and don't offer much to their communities other than jobs. When you overbuild for decades, there are looming facilities lifecycle needs that they can't afford. Nearly every campus operates at a deficit that has to be absorbed by the mothership. The best response would be the nuclear option and nobody in their right mind would bring that upon their self. Only 2 or 3 campuses out of 20+ are viable and only one or two are truly distinctive.

The PASSHE mergers have shown that you can't trim your way out of financial issues caused by piss poor execution of bad plans.

[boatcapt]

[QUOTE=Fightingscot82;n890849]

Penn State isn't government. They're a 501c3 non-profit that is state regulated and receives annual state funding in exchange for board seats.

Non profit staff...even better.

[Fightingscot82]

[QUOTE=boatcapt;n890844]

State employees are not exempt from gobbaldy-gook. Where do you think most government consultants got their start!

Government and consultant reports operate on the rule of gross tonnage...The validity of a report is directly proportional to its weight, or, why use five words to say something when you can use 20 (along with a table) to convey the same thing!

Penn State isn't government. They're a 501c3 non-profit that is state regulated and receives annual state funding in exchange for board seats.

[boatcapt]

[QUOTE=Fightingscot82;n890722]

Gobbaldy-gook - Lots of unnecessary words used to convey what should be simply stated information. Often used in an attempt to either hide the underlying message or in consultant word, used to give the impression that the study the consultant conducted was worth the money they were given.[/QUOTE]

Comprehension: the action or capability of understanding something.

This was an internal study within Penn State. They didn't pay any consultants. Its right in the first couple pages.

State employees are not exempt from gobbaldy-gook. Where do you think most government consultants got their start!

Government and consultant reports operate on the rule of gross tonnage...The validity of a report is directly proportional to its weight, or, why use five words to say something when you can use 20 (along with a table) to convey the same thing!

[Fightingscot82]

[QUOTE=boatcapt;n890705]

Gobbaldy-gook - Lots of unnecessary words used to convey what should be simply stated information. Often used in an attempt to either hide the underlying message or in consultant word, used to give the impression that the study the consultant conducted was worth the money they were given.[/QUOTE]

Comprehension: the action or capability of understanding something.

This was an internal study within Penn State. They didn't pay any consultants. Its right in the first couple pages.