PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

Yep. And as enrollment tanks, schools relax standards and take kids with lower grades...that may fail out at a higher percentage and thus hurt retention.

It went both ways. Most PASSHE schools have relaxed standards - and with poor results. Edinboro's plan was actually to raise standards, drop enrollment initially, then climb out with a better reputation and higher retention. It was showing signs of working before the pandemic hit.

Admit percentage doesn't matter much because its relative. If anything it predicts popularity with applicants - selectivity is based on the pool and a school's ability to consistently attract a pool at a certain standard. Harvard takes less than 5% of applicants but I bet 99.9% of applicants would be admitted anywhere. I always say that if Edinboro had 4,000 applicants with a 1,500 SAT and 4.0 high school GPA they'd have a 100% acceptance rate. Highest predictor of college success is still socio-economic status of the family: if parents went to college (increases with number of parent degrees), family income (increases with family income), and high school location (suburbs then rural then urban). High school GPA is the most reliable metric across all factors. SAT is far too related to those factors shown before. There are some schools very similar to

The research shows that admission standard doesn't matter much for PASSHE's core demographic (rural and urban modest & middle income kids) as much as cost and residency. Most kids are leaving because they run out of ways to pay or they don't feel connected. Its why I'm such a big proponent of keeping costs as low as possible especially if it gets kids to live on campus. Commuters are 3x as likely to work over 20 hours a week while attending full time. Research suggests 20 hours a week is the ceiling for students having the life balance needed to balance school & work.

[complaint_hopeful]

Campbell disputes PASSHE claims about integration

https://www.lockhaven.com/news/local...t-integration/

[complaint_hopeful]

But that's the perception - that the work you do for your degree will includes research opportunities and better advanced elective classes than SRU or other similar places. ,It only stands to reason that the intro courses would be harder. While some people will claim Calc I is Calc I no matter where you take it, its pretty clear that the class at CMU and the Class at westmoreland community college are very different. The R1 student perception is that they will be ask to do more harder work, and the number of students that are interested in academic challenges are getting fewer apparently, or at least the ones looking at PASSHE schools are. And given the rush to make articulation agreements with CCs and on-line type schools, who can blame them.

You are right that the PR and admissions does not push this difference - I'm pretty sure they have data that tells them not to. My experience is that IUP does very well with students that take a look at IUP as a possible choice, but poorly getting students to take a look.

Yep. And as enrollment tanks, schools relax standards and take kids with lower grades...that may fail out at a higher percentage and thus hurt retention.

[ironmaniup]

R1 doesn't mean rigor. It's research intensive. That's the ONLY difference in theory between IUP and Slippery Rock. Watch IUPs commercials. It's the same as any other college commercial. Not one thing distinctive about IUP. When we fail to define ourselves, we cede that duty to everyone else. So IUP then also gives in to the public defining them as I Usually Party.

But that's the perception - that the work you do for your degree will includes research opportunities and better advanced elective classes than SRU or other similar places. ,It only stands to reason that the intro courses would be harder. While some people will claim Calc I is Calc I no matter where you take it, its pretty clear that the class at CMU and the Class at westmoreland community college are very different. The R1 student perception is that they will be ask to do more harder work, and the number of students that are interested in academic challenges are getting fewer apparently, or at least the ones looking at PASSHE schools are. And given the rush to make articulation agreements with CCs and on-line type schools, who can blame them.

You are right that the PR and admissions does not push this difference - I'm pretty sure they have data that tells them not to. My experience is that IUP does very well with students that take a look at IUP as a possible choice, but poorly getting students to take a look.

[complaint_hopeful]

The faculty union is right to say that 2010 as the starting point is disingenuous when everyone knows that was peak enrollment as well as a demographic peak. IUP had traditionally been in the 12,000s.

Yep. It gets murky though as to how many employees a school needs. Many of these schools ballooned at their peak. Although a lot didn't think it was a bubble.

They probably should have used industry standard research to determine employee numbers.

But yes, their peaks were a bubble. What we're seeing now is more than a reversion to the mean. IUP is still around 3,000 below that 12,000 number.

I'm honestly surprised several schools aren't out of business.

[Fightingscot82]

So IUP is down about 6000 students from their peak. Some schools are down 40 to 50% from their peaks.

Maybe the level they're at now is the equilibrium and their peaks were during an education bubble? Maybe no strategy will grow them all to that level?

I mean I doubt that all these schools are bad at marketing and have poor strategies.

The faculty union is right to say that 2010 as the starting point is disingenuous when everyone knows that was peak enrollment as well as a demographic peak. IUP had traditionally been in the 12,000s.

[complaint_hopeful]

So IUP is down about 6000 students from their peak. Some schools are down 40 to 50% from their peaks.

Maybe the level they're at now is the equilibrium and their peaks were during an education bubble? Maybe no strategy will grow them all to that level?

I mean I doubt that all these schools are bad at marketing and have poor strategies.

[Fightingscot82]

IUP should get alumni volunteers to staff tables at College Night events at high schools in the Philly burbs. The best salespeople are the people who graduated from there. I could stand there and give these kids here in Chester County a long list of reasons of why staying home and going to West Chester is a big mistake. :-)

https://www.iup.edu/admissions/alumni-volunteers/

[IUPNation]

Its pretty clear that IUP lost market share of the Pittsburgh burbs to Slippery Rock. There are alot of reasons why, some are mistakes made by the admissions and marketing people, the increased costs at IUP for both housing and tuition, bad press in Pittsburgh, and maybe just complacency. Others are just changes in the way students choose. IUP still recruits better than SRU in the east, but probably lost students to eastern schools. The Students from Philly are not retained as well as the local students though.

IUP should get alumni volunteers to staff tables at College Night events at high schools in the Philly burbs. The best salespeople are the people who graduated from there. I could stand there and give these kids here in Chester County a long list of reasons of why staying home and going to West Chester is a big mistake. :-)

[IUPNation]

I think a key factor in IUP's enrollment decline is geography. In the early 80's I was a student worker in what was then called "University Relations Dept.." I placed an ad in the higher education supplement of The Philadelphia Inquirer. Made sense to me. The admin told me 'No, that's not our market - not where we want to spend our ad $$.' Years later, they did start to recruit SE PA heavily and all over the state to the point where IUP had the most geographically diverse student population in the system. So, when the trend to study closer to home hit did that hurt IUP more than the other schools? Did they lose focus on western PA/Pgh., contributing to a shift to SRU and others? I DK, it's just food for thought.

[ironmaniup]

I think a key factor in IUP's enrollment decline is geography. In the early 80's I was a student worker in what was then called "University Relations Dept.." I placed an ad in the higher education supplement of The Philadelphia Inquirer. Made sense to me. The admin told me 'No, that's not our market - not where we want to spend our ad $$.' Years later, they did start to recruit SE PA heavily and all over the state to the point where IUP had the most geographically diverse student population in the system. So, when the trend to study closer to home hit did that hurt IUP more than the other schools? Did they lose focus on western PA/Pgh., contributing to a shift to SRU and others? I DK, it's just food for thought.

Its pretty clear that IUP lost market share of the Pittsburgh burbs to Slippery Rock. There are alot of reasons why, some are mistakes made by the admissions and marketing people, the increased costs at IUP for both housing and tuition, bad press in Pittsburgh, and maybe just complacency. Others are just changes in the way students choose. IUP still recruits better than SRU in the east, but probably lost students to eastern schools. The Students from Philly are not retained as well as the local students though.

[Fightingscot82]

I agree. I don't think the average students going to these schools are looking for rigorous academics. That's not a dig as we get some very smart and talented students, but the average student just wants a degree.

R1 doesn't mean rigor. It's research intensive. That's the ONLY difference in theory between IUP and Slippery Rock. Watch IUPs commercials. It's the same as any other college commercial. Not one thing distinctive about IUP. When we fail to define ourselves, we cede that duty to everyone else. So IUP then also gives in to the public defining them as I Usually Party.

[complaint_hopeful]

Not sure what your saying here. This year there were nearly 100 retrenchment letters sent out, several departments closed down, and multiple AFSCME employees laid off. In addition, colleges were reorganized resulting in a dean and several other administrators retiring. The number of retrenchments for faculty was reduced to ~40 with additional retirements and reorganizations instead. There were rumors, based in part in the article about the merger we've been discussing, that more extensive layoff and retrenchments were to come. To dispel those rumors Driscoll announced that there are no plans for any similar employee reductions next year. Of course, there are still no plans for anything but emergency hiring,

I agree with you about the problem with recruiting. But as someone who was involved with the recruiting, and who pushed the R1/D1 advantage, I have to say it seems like fewer students are interested in these things, since they see it as a harder path. Sure we have an advanced anatomy course, that's probably only available at the bigger schools, and a Goldwater scholar, that presented work at Harvard. BUT, more students are looking at that and saying that's too hard, I could go to XYZ college, and my Calculus class would be easier, and I have a better grade and the same credit, and it won't cost as much.

I agree. I don't think the average students going to these schools are looking for rigorous academics. That's not a dig as we get some very smart and talented students, but the average student just wants a degree.

[complaint_hopeful]

I think a key factor in IUP's enrollment decline is geography. In the early 80's I was a student worker in what was then called "University Relations Dept.." I placed an ad in the higher education supplement of The Philadelphia Inquirer. Made sense to me. The admin told me 'No, that's not our market - not where we want to spend our ad $$.' Years later, they did start to recruit SE PA heavily and all over the state to the point where IUP had the most geographically diverse student population in the system. So, when the trend to study closer to home hit did that hurt IUP more than the other schools? Did they lose focus on western PA/Pgh., contributing to a shift to SRU and others? I DK, it's just food for thought.

Good thoughts. This generation of student likes to be on technology and a lot would rather watch Netflix in a Res Hall rather than socialize on campus. A lot of the amenities that attracted kids 10 years ago don't work now.

I think your point on students staying closer to home is big.

Its a tough thing to solve. Like 2 schools in passhe aren't losing enrollment regularly...

We've had a highly visible faculty strike several years ago. Seems there's always talk of layoffs. Seems most press is negative and has been for years. Now it's out there that like 5-6 schools are in dire straights financially.That has to impact things too.

Why go to schools with a storm cloud hovering over them?

[iupgroundhog]

Not sure what your saying here. This year there were nearly 100 retrenchment letters sent out, several departments closed down, and multiple AFSCME employees laid off. In addition, colleges were reorganized resulting in a dean and several other administrators retiring. The number of retrenchments for faculty was reduced to ~40 with additional retirements and reorganizations instead. There were rumors, based in part in the article about the merger we've been discussing, that more extensive layoff and retrenchments were to come. To dispel those rumors Driscoll announced that there are no plans for any similar employee reductions next year. Of course, there are still no plans for anything but emergency hiring,

I agree with you about the problem with recruiting. But as someone who was involved with the recruiting, and who pushed the R1/D1 advantage, I have to say it seems like fewer students are interested in these things, since they see it as a harder path. Sure we have an advanced anatomy course, that's probably only available at the bigger schools, and a Goldwater scholar, that presented work at Harvard. BUT, more students are looking at that and saying that's too hard, I could go to XYZ college, and my Calculus class would be easier, and I have a better grade and the same credit, and it won't cost as much.

I think a key factor in IUP's enrollment decline is geography. In the early 80's I was a student worker in what was then called "University Relations Dept.." I placed an ad in the higher education supplement of The Philadelphia Inquirer. Made sense to me. The admin told me 'No, that's not our market - not where we want to spend our ad $$.' Years later, they did start to recruit SE PA heavily and all over the state to the point where IUP had the most geographically diverse student population in the system. So, when the trend to study closer to home hit did that hurt IUP more than the other schools? Did they lose focus on western PA/Pgh., contributing to a shift to SRU and others? I DK, it's just food for thought.