PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Sec10-A-14]

I understand Erie County is starting a Community College, wondering how that if at all will affect Boro?
Don't live up there anymore so what say you?

[IUPNation]

If the Pennsylvania state system is in trouble....I can't imagine West Virginia small public colleges will be in great shape....they most likely face closure too. A smaller Pee Sack might have to take in what is left of the MEC.

[boatcapt]

I don't agree, a better analogy is the restaurant business. Students follow trends, as well as the cost, so there is a sweet spot for many different status/cost ratios. Universities can operate effectively with 1000-2000 students, if staff is managed properly so most schools have a way to go before they will fold.Question is, will the morale be high enough to do anything credible after they cut 10% of the youngest and most energetic faculty ? With PASSHE, there is also the question of state funding - who knows where that will go with Covid expenses coming due the next few years. Chancellor Dan wants to target Adult learning, and will focus on providing certification of skill stacks instead of degrees for people. It does cut out the gen eds that non-traditional students resent taking ( for good reason), But if this works is a 5-10 year kind of question. .

But do they have 5-10 years to see this through? Can a college sustain close to two decades of student loss and still remain viable? The PASSHE colleges, the state supported colleges, the private colleges and even the JUCO/Trade Colleges are competing for a shrinking pool of students. If PASSHE and PASSHE schools want to be among the survivors in this state-wide "right sizing," they need to take dramatic and immediate steps to reinvent themselves into something that draws students away from the many other options they have. Yes, back of house efficiency and right sizing staff are important, but those alone are not going to pull students back. I think the time to "efficiency their way out of this problem" is long gone.

[ironmaniup]

Bottom line is that there is a shrinking customer base and too much competition. When a business finds itself in a situation like this, there really only 2 ways to go. Either make yourself elite and charge fewer customers more money (the Cadillac effect) or you cut overhead and prices to the bone and go for volume (the Crazy Eddie effect). Probably the worst thing you can do is to try and be in the middle...not quite elite and not cheap.

The bottom line is there are too many colleges competing for too few students. The market is going to correct itself one way or the other.

I don't agree, a better analogy is the restaurant business. Students follow trends, as well as the cost, so there is a sweet spot for many different status/cost ratios. Universities can operate effectively with 1000-2000 students, if staff is managed properly so most schools have a way to go before they will fold.Question is, will the morale be high enough to do anything credible after they cut 10% of the youngest and most energetic faculty ? With PASSHE, there is also the question of state funding - who knows where that will go with Covid expenses coming due the next few years. Chancellor Dan wants to target Adult learning, and will focus on providing certification of skill stacks instead of degrees for people. It does cut out the gen eds that non-traditional students resent taking ( for good reason), But if this works is a 5-10 year kind of question. .

[boatcapt]

Kind of. I believe with some noteworthy tuition program the schools can survive. I call it the "Aldi principle". The prices are so low that many people question the validity. Eventually, 'typical' people realize its just as good or close enough to the name brand commodity that they have a hard time rationalizing paying more for the household name. That's the challenge - the state has allowed the cost of attendance to creep up into the range of the Pitt and Penn State outlet stores and regional private schools figured out how to manage running their schools while discounting sticker price by 50-60% like they're a furniture store.

Every school is shedding faculty and staff right now. I don't know numbers, but dozens of experienced faculty and staff at Edinboro took the system early retirement incentive over the summer. Lots of people making >$100k. That helps a lot. I've also heard there are already some changes coming to the "collaboration" model. Mansfield reported a big jump in enrollment - up almost 10% over the last two years. That's big. For them, that's about $5 million in additional revenue after just trimming personnel expenses.

Bottom line is that there is a shrinking customer base and too much competition. When a business finds itself in a situation like this, there really only 2 ways to go. Either make yourself elite and charge fewer customers more money (the Cadillac effect) or you cut overhead and prices to the bone and go for volume (the Crazy Eddie effect). Probably the worst thing you can do is to try and be in the middle...not quite elite and not cheap.

The bottom line is there are too many colleges competing for too few students. The market is going to correct itself one way or the other.

[Fightingscot82]

Seems like the student body is self reducing without the permission of thePASSHE. Question is will back of house consolidations and staff attrition be enough to stem that tide OR would it be better to get ahead of the problem and build another beach head at 8 to 10 schools? Are the current schools worth defending ala the Magenou Line in WW2? French thought so...didnt work out so well.

Kind of. I believe with some noteworthy tuition program the schools can survive. I call it the "Aldi principle". The prices are so low that many people question the validity. Eventually, 'typical' people realize its just as good or close enough to the name brand commodity that they have a hard time rationalizing paying more for the household name. That's the challenge - the state has allowed the cost of attendance to creep up into the range of the Pitt and Penn State outlet stores and regional private schools figured out how to manage running their schools while discounting sticker price by 50-60% like they're a furniture store.

Every school is shedding faculty and staff right now. I don't know numbers, but dozens of experienced faculty and staff at Edinboro took the system early retirement incentive over the summer. Lots of people making >$100k. That helps a lot. I've also heard there are already some changes coming to the "collaboration" model. Mansfield reported a big jump in enrollment - up almost 10% over the last two years. That's big. For them, that's about $5 million in additional revenue after just trimming personnel expenses.

[boatcapt]

Of course not. But these schools are indeed major economic engines so a reduction in staff or students hurts right away. Reducing both students and staff at the same time when you cut athletics hurts the university and the town together. It's likely that the tuition losses from such a cut outweighs the operational burden.

Seems like the student body is self reducing without the permission of thePASSHE. Question is will back of house consolidations and staff attrition be enough to stem that tide OR would it be better to get ahead of the problem and build another beach head at 8 to 10 schools? Are the current schools worth defending ala the Magenou Line in WW2? French thought so...didnt work out so well.

[Fightingscot82]

For my own information, in a town like Clarion or Indiana versus California or Slippery Rock, how much economic impact does being the county seat have versus being a college town. I know they could roll it up in the borough if Cal ever closed.

I guess it's to scale. Clarion isn't a very populous county but there's more to it than just Clarion. Indiana has more going for it than any others listed: there are big regional employers headquartered there. Simply being a county seat keeps a town alive but it's not enough to drive an economy. Just ask Tionesta or Emporium.

[CALUPA69]

Of course not. But these schools are indeed major economic engines so a reduction in staff or students hurts right away. Reducing both students and staff at the same time when you cut athletics hurts the university and the town together. It's likely that the tuition losses from such a cut outweighs the operational burden.

For my own information, in a town like Clarion or Indiana versus California or Slippery Rock, how much economic impact does being the county seat have versus being a college town. I know they could roll it up in the borough if Cal ever closed.

[Fightingscot82]

So keeping the campuses fully open and fully staffed is a "make work" project for the local communities?

Of course not. But these schools are indeed major economic engines so a reduction in staff or students hurts right away. Reducing both students and staff at the same time when you cut athletics hurts the university and the town together. It's likely that the tuition losses from such a cut outweighs the operational burden.

[Fightingscot82]

At this level, a $1 million budget deficit in athletics is purely measured against budgeted expenses. They don't have revenue going against salary and operations. So a profit/loss analysis doesn't consider the tuition revenue the department directly generates. Nearly all athletes wouldn't be attending if not for their roster spot.

[boatcapt]

Not any of the six campuses involved. All except Indiana are in small remote towns, and then Indiana County isn't exactly in a growth pattern. Nobody is buying dorms. The ripple effects of cutting 75 jobs in a small town is immediately.

So keeping the campuses fully open and fully staffed is a "make work" project for the local communities?

[Fightingscot82]

There is a lot of distance between campus won't close and front end business as usual. Not saying this is what is envisioned but a school could end all athletic programs, close and sell off all on-campus dorms, end all undergrad programs and "convert" to a graduate program center and still technically keep the campus open.

Not any of the six campuses involved. All except Indiana are in small remote towns, and then Indiana County isn't exactly in a growth pattern. Nobody is buying dorms. The ripple effects of cutting 75 jobs in a small town is immediately.

[boatcapt]

Cutting athletics outright at almost any college or university would be a significant blow. For everyone below P5, most of those students are tuition paying. When an academic program is eliminated, admissions stops accepting new students and existing students finish out then its truly eliminated when they all graduate. When you cut a sports team, athletic scholarships are honored through graduation but nearly all students transfer immediately taking their tuition dollars with them.

I can't find the article to confirm, but I remember reading that when Cheyney cut football, only 2 students remained the following fall.

I agree...but that view is not held by all in the academic/administrative community. It really depends on who is in-charge at a school. It is pretty tempting to see a $1M budget deficit that you have to cover by either increasing tuition, closing down academic departments, laying off faculty OR taking that $1M athletic budget. Quite a few in the academic community that would take the latter all day and twice on Sunday!!

[boatcapt]

The plan clearly states that everything is on the back end and campuses won't close. This is already going on with West Chester and Cheyney coordinating administrative functions. Both schools continue to exist.

We don't know what the future holds. If enrollment continues to slide and expenses can't be further contained, yeah, I imagine we'll see proposals for additional measures. But right now its just collaborations.

There is a lot of distance between campus won't close and front end business as usual. Not saying this is what is envisioned but a school could end all athletic programs, close and sell off all on-campus dorms, end all undergrad programs and "convert" to a graduate program center and still technically keep the campus open.