THE IUP Football Thread

[IUPNation]

The kiddies are whining about the prices of their numerous dining choices at IUP. They would have a meltdown if they had 1980’s IUP Dining where you got two choices per meal. There was no after dark dining choices on campus. They have food delivered by Grub Hub. They can't walk to a dining facility? Holy crap they are spoiled.

https://www.thepenn.org/opinion/how-...eCEtPEvnaetxc8

[IUPNation]

Hard to say. They (football) didn't draw terribly this year prior to last week (eliminated and crappy weather isn't a good combo).

IUP probably had 5k to 6k on average (realistically, not announced).

Don't get me wrong. Miller may get 5,500 but it's not an engaged crowd by any means. It's still dead in there. In addition, they allow you to keep tailgating after kickoff so every week there's another 500 or so who don't even come inside.

Being honest, it's still just a very dull atmosphere. Other than selling booze inside the gates (they should) I don't know what else to say.

One suggestion (on the Eberly end) would be to put a fence behind the end zone and let fans stand there (close to the goalpost). A ton of people stand down in that area (near the refreshments) but the view is terrible. Having that end zone lined with people (think Indiana High) would be a major upgrade compared to the now vast empty space.

Basketball gets way more enthusiastic crowds, but Joe also draws a much younger demographic. The KCAC also sells beer, wine and mixed drinks that you can take to your seats.

Section C has been the (enthusiasm) issue forever. They don't make a peep and they are right behind the team.

Best atmosphere this year - by a mile - was the Ashland game. It was a night game. What a shock. Coincidence, I'm sure. When Zinobile caught the game-winner, it was a loud moment.



As for Indiana High, it's tricky. IHS has an arrogance to it ... comes across like they are above the Heritage Conference. Add to it, forever IHS was so much bigger, enrollment-wise. Now, as these Heritage schools are combining, IHS is still bigger but not to the previous extent. The other option would be to go out with Altoona, etc. Travel-wise, it's not much better. Worse, perhaps. Now, if Ligonier Valley comes back to the Heritage (they aren't nearly as good in the WPIAL), who knows. Driving buses up across the mountain all winter isn't fun.

IHS actually has some good players this year (and most years). They just have far too few of them. I suspect Tort will recruit their Safety/LB (Kowchuck) in this upcoming class. They may even convert him to TE. He's big (6'5") but just needs to add some weight.

I think back when I was there...they played Punxsy and DuBois in foosball.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I think back when I was there...they played Punxsy and DuBois in foosball.

They could go back to that route ... Punxsy, DuBois, Brookville, etc.

Travel-wise, while a WPIAL outlier, they don't have it too bad right now. They are in with Kiski, Armstrong, Highlands, etc.

Like many schools, they just can't get enough kids out for the football team. IHS has a very good hockey program which has no doubt taken kids away from football. Hockey is essentially a fall and winter sport so I don't think kids would (could) do both.

Indiana wasn't bad early in the season but then got ravaged by injuries to its few star players. No depth. As a 4A football program, they are only dressing (I'd guess) 35 to 40 players (and several of those are freshmen).

I still think IHS likes the prestige of the WPIAL (considering it is surrounded by non-WPIAL schools).

The 'revenue' boys' sports have been down for awhile now.

[iupgroundhog]

I think back when I was there...they played Punxsy and DuBois in foosball.

The conference realignment in rural PA is interesting. Indiana seems culturally more D6 than D7. Geographically and travel-wise, I think D7 makes sense for IHS. The problem for IHS is that they are in kind of a conference affiliation no man's land.

If you look at the various conferences for the rural PA schools in central PA and extending into the western regions and towards the NE region, I think IHS would be a better fit for the Laurel Highlands Athletic Conference (LHAC). This includes schools like Tyrone, Bellwood-Antis, Huntingdon, Clearfield, Philipsburg-Osceola, Bellefonte, Bald Eagle Area, and Penns Valley, in addition to the traditional LHAC schools Conemaugh Valley, Meyersdale, Windber, Berlin Brothersvalley, and North Star. I think that would be a better fit culturally and geographically.

My merged alma mater (Central Mountain), which combines Lock Haven, which played in the Central Penn Conference, and Bald Eagle-Nittany, which played in the West Branch Conference (mostly Williamsport area schools minus Williamsport), is now part of the Heartland Conference, which extends down the Susquehanna Valley in the west e.g. Lewisburg, Selinsgrove, Shikellemy, to Williamsport and further east to Bloomsburg, Central Columbia, etc. The conference alignment seems to work well for the 20+ schools that are members. A few of the larger historical D6 foes (State College, Altoona) and Mifflin County (formerly Lewistown, Kishocaquillas, et al) have moved to the Mid-Penn Conference, which in the case of SC and Altoona is a better competitive fit and for Mifflin County is better geographically.

BTW, Punxsy and Dubois are in what is called the D-9 conference which I don't think would be a good fit for IHS.

[IUP24]

The kiddies are whining about the prices of their numerous dining choices at IUP. They would have a meltdown if they had 1980’s IUP Dining where you got two choices per meal. There was no after dark dining choices on campus. They have food delivered by Grub Hub. They can't walk to a dining facility? Holy crap they are spoiled.

https://www.thepenn.org/opinion/how-...eCEtPEvnaetxc8

I understand the argument. But I think the argument they are presenting is not correct. I think most schools now (IUP included) do a really good job of providing a variety of dining options to students, faculty, visitors on campus, etc. They are presenting the case that the meal plan value has not increased at the same value as many other items that are offered at specific spots. However, what they are failing to identify is that the stuff they are referencing are some of the items that, in recent years, have gone up in price a ton (i.e. the frozen foods they referenced - pizza logs, mac and cheese bits, etc.).

So, on one hand, I get it. They want to use a meal swipe for more "a la carte" options, but the meal swipe no longer covers that option, and the price now requires them to use flex dollars. What they probably fail to realize is that for the meal swipe to cover all of these a la carte options they desire to purchase with a traditional meal swipe, the cost of their basic meal plan would go up significantly. It sounds like IUP has gotten much better at the inclusion of other dining options on campus being able to work with a meal swipe, or meal swipe + flex. Dining there has changed a lot since I graduated in 2015. That said, I can argue that some of the stuff they are presenting shows they are changing for the better. What Folger's used to be when I was there was mostly all flex. They had a pizza place, burger place, and a salad spot, in addition to a Starbucks. The entire building was all Flex. They opened up "North Dining" my junior or senior year and that spot was 50/50 in terms of offerings where you could use a meal plan. The HUB and Fosters were about the only two spots that you were guaranteed to be able to effectively utilize a meal swipe.

I would also challenge the "post-it note" sized sandwich. It sounds to me like they are describing what used to be called a "bagged lunch" at IUP. In fact, that was the best option on campus through the week for lunch. The sandwich wasn't huge, but it was a lunch sized sandwich on a small hoagie bun (you had your choice of ham, turkey, roast beef, or tuna salad). You got a bottle of water or can of pop, chips, cookie, and a piece of fruit. For $6.20 meal swipe, that's a pretty good deal. They had them available in about 3-4 different spots around campus, one of them inside Pratt or Wallwork.

The real conversation is that most universities seem to be navigating away from the all you can eat dining option. That's happening everywhere. As the article suggests, there are staffing issues galore that are changing the way hospitality services have to operate. Fewer people are inclined to eat at a buffet post-pandemic as well. And I'm sure food costs are astronomical at universities, and the likely waste associated with it makes it an unprofitable venture.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I understand the argument. But I think the argument they are presenting is not correct. I think most schools now (IUP included) do a really good job of providing a variety of dining options to students, faculty, visitors on campus, etc. They are presenting the case that the meal plan value has not increased at the same value as many other items that are offered at specific spots. However, what they are failing to identify is that the stuff they are referencing are some of the items that, in recent years, have gone up in price a ton (i.e. the frozen foods they referenced - pizza logs, mac and cheese bits, etc.).

So, on one hand, I get it. They want to use a meal swipe for more "a la carte" options, but the meal swipe no longer covers that option, and the price now requires them to use flex dollars. What they probably fail to realize is that for the meal swipe to cover all of these a la carte options they desire to purchase with a traditional meal swipe, the cost of their basic meal plan would go up significantly. It sounds like IUP has gotten much better at the inclusion of other dining options on campus being able to work with a meal swipe, or meal swipe + flex. Dining there has changed a lot since I graduated in 2015. That said, I can argue that some of the stuff they are presenting shows they are changing for the better. What Folger's used to be when I was there was mostly all flex. They had a pizza place, burger place, and a salad spot, in addition to a Starbucks. The entire building was all Flex. They opened up "North Dining" my junior or senior year and that spot was 50/50 in terms of offerings where you could use a meal plan. The HUB and Fosters were about the only two spots that you were guaranteed to be able to effectively utilize a meal swipe.

I would also challenge the "post-it note" sized sandwich. It sounds to me like they are describing what used to be called a "bagged lunch" at IUP. In fact, that was the best option on campus through the week for lunch. The sandwich wasn't huge, but it was a lunch sized sandwich on a small hoagie bun (you had your choice of ham, turkey, roast beef, or tuna salad). You got a bottle of water or can of pop, chips, cookie, and a piece of fruit. For $6.20 meal swipe, that's a pretty good deal. They had them available in about 3-4 different spots around campus, one of them inside Pratt or Wallwork.

The real conversation is that most universities seem to be navigating away from the all you can eat dining option. That's happening everywhere. As the article suggests, there are staffing issues galore that are changing the way hospitality services have to operate. Fewer people are inclined to eat at a buffet post-pandemic as well. And I'm sure food costs are astronomical at universities, and the likely waste associated with it makes it an unprofitable venture.

Foster Dining Hall

Makes me sick thinking about it.


This is five-star dining compared to 20-some years ago.

Times have changed.

I was there when Folger opened. It was a glorious upgrade. Of course, everybody used up all their flex money there three weeks in to the semester and then it was back to the cattle feed up the hill.


These same kids complaining about food prices walk around campus with $6 Starbucks drinks all day, every day.

[IUP24]

The conference realignment in rural PA is interesting. Indiana seems culturally more D6 than D7. Geographically and travel-wise, I think D7 makes sense for IHS. The problem for IHS is that they are in kind of a conference affiliation no man's land.

If you look at the various conferences for the rural PA schools in central PA and extending into the western regions and towards the NE region, I think IHS would be a better fit for the Laurel Highlands Athletic Conference (LHAC). This includes schools like Tyrone, Bellwood-Antis, Huntingdon, Clearfield, Philipsburg-Osceola, Bellefonte, Bald Eagle Area, and Penns Valley, in addition to the traditional LHAC schools Conemaugh Valley, Meyersdale, Windber, Berlin Brothersvalley, and North Star. I think that would be a better fit culturally and geographically.

My merged alma mater (Central Mountain), which combines Lock Haven, which played in the Central Penn Conference, and Bald Eagle-Nittany, which played in the West Branch Conference (mostly Williamsport area schools minus Williamsport), is now part of the Heartland Conference, which extends down the Susquehanna Valley in the west e.g. Lewisburg, Selinsgrove, Shikellemy, to Williamsport and further east to Bloomsburg, Central Columbia, etc. The conference alignment seems to work well for the 20+ schools that are members. A few of the larger historical D6 foes (State College, Altoona) and Mifflin County (formerly Lewistown, Kishocaquillas, et al) have moved to the Mid-Penn Conference, which in the case of SC and Altoona is a better competitive fit and for Mifflin County is better geographically.

BTW, Punxsy and Dubois are in what is called the D-9 conference which I don't think would be a good fit for IHS.

It always intrigues me how those outside of the general western PA or Pittsburgh seem to view the WPIAL and surrounding Pittsburgh area as a whole (not saying you directly, just in generalities). There's always a quick conclusion that schools should merge or join another league, etc. I'm not saying that some schools in WPIAL couldn't benefit from that, but it always intrigues how those discussions seem to always manifest from discussions related to athletics.

I wouldn't necessarily say that they are in no-man's land compared to other WPIAL schools, or what's considered the "Pittsburgh area." They are 30-45 minutes from Greensburg Salem, Greensburg Central Catholic, Hempfield, Derry, Greater Latrobe, Franklin Regional, Kittaning, Kiski, and Armstrong. Heck, if you extended that radius to 60-minutes, Indiana would be in proximity to Highlands, Franklin Regional, Penn Trafford, Jeannette, Penn Hills, and Norwin. Nearly every sporting event I had in high school was a 30 minute bus ride. And sure, 30 minutes is different than 60 minutes, but I never understood the assumption that it should be a 15 minute skip and you're at the destination for the game. If you are playing most of your games within 45 minutes, that's certainly doable and reasonable. Especially when you consider the poor road and highway infrastructure to get around Pittsburgh and the surrounding area.

I think the issue with Indiana (and it's not only Indiana) is that with all those schools I listed, there is such a variety in size and enrollment that it's hard to envision that all working out for them to play each other. The issue isn't location, it is the location in comparison to similar sized schools. Perhaps that's where you were going with your cultural fit discussion.

All that said though, this subject never seems to come up when talking about those schools north and north east. New Castle would be a far better fit geographically in D10, instead of the WPIAL, but they've been pretty successful and are considered "Beaver County" so they are sill close enough to Ellwood City, Beaver, Beaver Falls, and Central Valley that I guess it's never a conversation.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

It always intrigues me how those outside of the general western PA or Pittsburgh seem to view the WPIAL and surrounding Pittsburgh area as a whole (not saying you directly, just in generalities). There's always a quick conclusion that schools should merge or join another league, etc. I'm not saying that some schools in WPIAL couldn't benefit from that, but it always intrigues how those discussions seem to always manifest from discussions related to athletics.

I wouldn't necessarily say that they are in no-man's land compared to other WPIAL schools, or what's considered the "Pittsburgh area." They are 30-45 minutes from Greensburg Salem, Greensburg Central Catholic, Hempfield, Derry, Greater Latrobe, Franklin Regional, Kittaning, Kiski, and Armstrong. Heck, if you extended that radius to 60-minutes, Indiana would be in proximity to Highlands, Franklin Regional, Penn Trafford, Jeannette, Penn Hills, and Norwin. Nearly every sporting event I had in high school was a 30 minute bus ride. And sure, 30 minutes is different than 60 minutes, but I never understood the assumption that it should be a 15 minute skip and you're at the destination for the game. If you are playing most of your games within 45 minutes, that's certainly doable and reasonable. Especially when you consider the poor road and highway infrastructure to get around Pittsburgh and the surrounding area.

I think the issue with Indiana (and it's not only Indiana) is that with all those schools I listed, there is such a variety in size and enrollment that it's hard to envision that all working out for them to play each other. The issue isn't location, it is the location in comparison to similar sized schools. Perhaps that's where you were going with your cultural fit discussion.

All that said though, this subject never seems to come up when talking about those schools north and north east. New Castle would be a far better fit geographically in D10, instead of the WPIAL, but they've been pretty successful and are considered "Beaver County" so they are sill close enough to Ellwood City, Beaver, Beaver Falls, and Central Valley that I guess it's never a conversation.

Recall a few years back Altoona joined the WPIAL. Talk about an outlier. They had very little success, cited the travel and bailed out. Perhaps nobody there thought of the travel in advance. Or, they were used to winning and didn't like getting pounded on the norm.

Local to Indiana, West Shamokin joined the WPIAL but also didn't last long. They've since rejoined the Heritage.

IHS is going to lose its closest rival next year. Kiski Area is going to get bumped back up to 5A.

[IUP24]

Recall a few years back Altoona joined the WPIAL. Talk about an outlier. They had very little success, cited the travel and bailed out. Perhaps nobody there thought of the travel in advance. Or, they were used to winning and didn't like getting pounded on the norm.

Local to Indiana, West Shamokin joined the WPIAL but also didn't last long. They've since rejoined the Heritage.

IHS is going to lose its closest rival next year. Kiski Area is going to get bumped back up to 5A.

Coming from somebody who had no idea about the Heritage Conference until I went to IUP, the unique element to me was that league was comprised of all different sized schools, but they were all playing in a single conference. They would all play in the regular season, but many would get seeded differently as it pertained to their represented classification within PIAA D6. Perhaps that was more prevalent in basketball than football. But I thought I recalled that some of those teams were A while others were AA. Then you had the situation with AAA Ligonier Valley.

[IUPNation]

I understand the argument. But I think the argument they are presenting is not correct. I think most schools now (IUP included) do a really good job of providing a variety of dining options to students, faculty, visitors on campus, etc. They are presenting the case that the meal plan value has not increased at the same value as many other items that are offered at specific spots. However, what they are failing to identify is that the stuff they are referencing are some of the items that, in recent years, have gone up in price a ton (i.e. the frozen foods they referenced - pizza logs, mac and cheese bits, etc.).

So, on one hand, I get it. They want to use a meal swipe for more "a la carte" options, but the meal swipe no longer covers that option, and the price now requires them to use flex dollars. What they probably fail to realize is that for the meal swipe to cover all of these a la carte options they desire to purchase with a traditional meal swipe, the cost of their basic meal plan would go up significantly. It sounds like IUP has gotten much better at the inclusion of other dining options on campus being able to work with a meal swipe, or meal swipe + flex. Dining there has changed a lot since I graduated in 2015. That said, I can argue that some of the stuff they are presenting shows they are changing for the better. What Folger's used to be when I was there was mostly all flex. They had a pizza place, burger place, and a salad spot, in addition to a Starbucks. The entire building was all Flex. They opened up "North Dining" my junior or senior year and that spot was 50/50 in terms of offerings where you could use a meal plan. The HUB and Fosters were about the only two spots that you were guaranteed to be able to effectively utilize a meal swipe.

I would also challenge the "post-it note" sized sandwich. It sounds to me like they are describing what used to be called a "bagged lunch" at IUP. In fact, that was the best option on campus through the week for lunch. The sandwich wasn't huge, but it was a lunch sized sandwich on a small hoagie bun (you had your choice of ham, turkey, roast beef, or tuna salad). You got a bottle of water or can of pop, chips, cookie, and a piece of fruit. For $6.20 meal swipe, that's a pretty good deal. They had them available in about 3-4 different spots around campus, one of them inside Pratt or Wallwork.

The real conversation is that most universities seem to be navigating away from the all you can eat dining option. That's happening everywhere. As the article suggests, there are staffing issues galore that are changing the way hospitality services have to operate. Fewer people are inclined to eat at a buffet post-pandemic as well. And I'm sure food costs are astronomical at universities, and the likely waste associated with it makes it an unprofitable venture.

Don't students work in the dining halls? They did back in the Stone Ages.

I just laugh because "in my day" you went through the line and you picked which of the two mystery entrees you wanted for the meal.

We thought we were the **** when they put the fresh french fries at the salad bar.

I does seem it is no longer all you can eat like it was in the Stone Ages.

I still remember their version of a "cheesesteak"...some small bad roll...some subpar Steak Um and a slice of non melted American cheese on top.

Then there was Turkey Tetrachloride night! I was happy when it was Salisbury Steak Day!

I often ate macaroni salad and then mixed in dry tuna from the salad bar.

My plan did cover breakfast...but I rarely ever ate breakfast. It's probably why I was so thin in those days.

[Fightingscot82]

Don't students work in the dining halls? They did back in the Stone Ages.

I just laugh because "in my day" you went through the line and you picked which of the two mystery entrees you wanted for the meal.

We thought we were the **** when they put the fresh french fries at the salad bar.

I does seem it is no longer all you can eat like it was in the Stone Ages.

I still remember their version of a "cheesesteak"...some small bad roll...some subpar Steak Um and a slice of non melted American cheese on top.

Then there was Turkey Tetrachloride night! I was happy when it was Salisbury Steak Day!

I often ate macaroni salad and then mixed in dry tuna from the salad bar.

My plan did cover breakfast...but I rarely ever ate breakfast. It's probably why I was so thin in those days.

It's all a Catch 22. Students don't want all you can eat setup, menu, or quality. They want "fast casual" quality food that is grab or order to go then take it back to their rooms or sit with their friends before retreating to their living space. They also don't want fixed meal times because most run on a 2-3 hour delay from what we adults consider typical.

They want quality and convenience but don't want to pay the cost.

It's the same for every part of college. Tuition, activities, housing, etc. They want online class but live on campus. Then they complain that they feel lonely and disconnected. They want nice stuff but question the cost. Running a college anymore is just parenting other people's kids.

The quietest place on campus is the dining hall. The most lively is the common spaces of the library.

[IUP24]

It's all a Catch 22. Students don't want all you can eat setup, menu, or quality. They want "fast casual" quality food that is grab or order to go then take it back to their rooms or sit with their friends before retreating to their living space. They also don't want fixed meal times because most run on a 2-3 hour delay from what we adults consider typical.

They want quality and convenience but don't want to pay the cost.

It's the same for every part of college. Tuition, activities, housing, etc. They want online class but live on campus. Then they complain that they feel lonely and disconnected. They want nice stuff but question the cost. Running a college anymore is just parenting other people's kids.

The quietest place on campus is the dining hall. The most lively is the common spaces of the library.

Perhaps the best post I've ever read on this message board. Spot on. That can be extrapolated to other areas of our society as well. But in a vacuum what you stated there concerns me greatly as things progress and more young people just out of college enter the workforce. I am "young" by definition. I turned 30 this year. It wasn't long ago that I was in college, but man, does it seem so different now compared to then.

People want specific things, but don't want to pay for that thing. It's a society where kids believe they are, for lack of a better word or phrase, entitled to what they want living because they are a living, breathing, human being. They want a college experience, but don't necessarily want to do the things that provide that experience to you.

[EyeoftheHawk]

The conference realignment in rural PA is interesting. Indiana seems culturally more D6 than D7. Geographically and travel-wise, I think D7 makes sense for IHS. The problem for IHS is that they are in kind of a conference affiliation no man's land.

If you look at the various conferences for the rural PA schools in central PA and extending into the western regions and towards the NE region, I think IHS would be a better fit for the Laurel Highlands Athletic Conference (LHAC). This includes schools like Tyrone, Bellwood-Antis, Huntingdon, Clearfield, Philipsburg-Osceola, Bellefonte, Bald Eagle Area, and Penns Valley, in addition to the traditional LHAC schools Conemaugh Valley, Meyersdale, Windber, Berlin Brothersvalley, and North Star. I think that would be a better fit culturally and geographically.

My merged alma mater (Central Mountain), which combines Lock Haven, which played in the Central Penn Conference, and Bald Eagle-Nittany, which played in the West Branch Conference (mostly Williamsport area schools minus Williamsport), is now part of the Heartland Conference, which extends down the Susquehanna Valley in the west e.g. Lewisburg, Selinsgrove, Shikellemy, to Williamsport and further east to Bloomsburg, Central Columbia, etc. The conference alignment seems to work well for the 20+ schools that are members. A few of the larger historical D6 foes (State College, Altoona) and Mifflin County (formerly Lewistown, Kishocaquillas, et al) have moved to the Mid-Penn Conference, which in the case of SC and Altoona is a better competitive fit and for Mifflin County is better geographically.

BTW, Punxsy and Dubois are in what is called the D-9 conference which I don't think would be a good fit for IHS.

Agree about LHAC being a better fit than D-9, which is basically no-man’s land for a 4A school. Same for D-6. Every once in a while someone mentions Heritage Conference but as weak as IHS football is, they’d win that conference every year and dominate in every other sport. IHS is 2-3 times bigger than most schools in the Heritage.

That said, IHS is still better where they are overall. We’re mostly talking about football, but they’ve been competitive in many other sports in the WPIAL. As much as none of us want to admit it, there’s more to athletics than football.

[EyeoftheHawk]

Coming from somebody who had no idea about the Heritage Conference until I went to IUP, the unique element to me was that league was comprised of all different sized schools, but they were all playing in a single conference. They would all play in the regular season, but many would get seeded differently as it pertained to their represented classification within PIAA D6. Perhaps that was more prevalent in basketball than football. But I thought I recalled that some of those teams were A while others were AA. Then you had the situation with AAA Ligonier Valley.

All teams in the Heritage were A or AA. Ligonier Valley was AA, although they had a run there where they could have likely won D-6 AAA. Ligonier Valley is the merger of Laurel Valley, which was very tiny, and Ligonier Valley, that was small. Ligonier Valley has been mediocre and even less than that this year in the WPIAL.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Perhaps the best post I've ever read on this message board. Spot on. That can be extrapolated to other areas of our society as well. But in a vacuum what you stated there concerns me greatly as things progress and more young people just out of college enter the workforce. I am "young" by definition. I turned 30 this year. It wasn't long ago that I was in college, but man, does it seem so different now compared to then.

People want specific things, but don't want to pay for that thing. It's a society where kids believe they are, for lack of a better word or phrase, entitled to what they want living because they are a living, breathing, human being. They want a college experience, but don't necessarily want to do the things that provide that experience to you.

Same thing my age group says about your age group (and the one above mine says about us).