PSAC 2023 (Week 1) Non-Conference Games

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Glenville announced their Week 1 game at Northwood a couple of weeks ago.

I thought I remembered reading that on here.

Cal may actually need a game if AB closes by September (although I think they'll last one more academic year).

[ctrabs74]

I thought I remembered reading that on here.

Cal may actually need a game if AB closes by September (although I think they'll last one more academic year).

Cal might as well have a bye week. They basically did have a bye week with this game vs. AB, but this is actually the first I heard of AB possibly closing.

EDIT: Story from WV Metro News:
https://wvmetronews.com/2023/06/23/a...cial-problems/

The West Virginia Higher Education Policy Commission (HEPC), during a meeting earlier this month, granted reauthorization for every private college in the state to continue to operate and award degrees, except for one… Alderson Broaddus University.

The HEPC delayed approval for the small private college in Philippi over concerns about the school’s financial condition, according to HEPC Chancellor Sarah Armstrong-Tucker.

“The commission has requested additional information from the institution to consider prior to voting on whether to reauthorize them to continue conferring degrees for the next year,” she said.

That will be a significant hurdle for AB to overcome. Enrollment is down to about 500 undergraduate and 170 graduate students. Approximately 100 people work at the school. Like many institutions, AB has struggled to maintain enrollment and keep up with the costs of operating the school.

[Fightingscot82]

I thought I remembered reading that on here.

Cal may actually need a game if AB closes by September (although I think they'll last one more academic year).

AB isn't at risk to close - the state is challenging them on their long term viability. Independent entities do accreditation, states grant their ability to operate as educational institutions. AB has already used emergency financing to extend their life. Basically they're the business version of living paycheck to paycheck. Any bad swing in enrollment or finances will put them under.

[Fightingscot82]

If WV has let Davis & Elkins or Salem limp along for so long I don't see how they will come after AB.

[IUP24]

Millersville, although certainly not top tier at this point, was much improved last year. That was the first time they'd beaten Ship in about forever, and they seem to have improved their recruiting. What happens after the latest Lock Haven shakeup remains to be seen. If this new guy can't get them going I think they need to seriously consider whether they want to continue the sport.

What constitutes "getting them going?" I mean that seriously and not tongue in cheek. I think that's a worthy discussion. With the transient nature of college football, and college athletics in general now, I'm not sure the sport is set up to allow "bad programs" to "get going" ever again. Because the second somebody "shows out" (as the kids say) for Lock Haven, they are hitting the portal. The second that the planets do in fact align, and they win a few games, that coach is on the first bus out of town to another opportunity, along with many of his players.

We're seeing and talking about this at the bus league level, but the discussion is the same at the FBS level. With the direction this is trending, what purpose is there for many of these schools to actually field the sport?

I know the reasons why many will say there's a purpose (we've talked about them many times before), but long-term, I don't understand how at some point most of these schools don't open this same conversation (even at the FBS level). I do believe that at some point what's occurred to this point since the portal, and the direction this is all heading with more transiency, NIL money, etc., it will long term result in less programs (at all levels) and fewer opportunities for scholarships.

[cwfenn]

I thought I remembered reading that on here.

Cal may actually need a game if AB closes by September (although I think they'll last one more academic year).

Well, they can just quit football like Simon Fraser in the LSC did this Spring. Can’t believe AB tries to field a football team with 500 students as it is.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Well, they can just quit football like Simon Fraser in the LSC did this Spring. Can’t believe AB tries to field a football team with 500 students as it is.

Quitting football would likely send 100 kids to different schools -- slashing the enrollment by another 20 percent.

They have a Sprint team, too. Add up all the athletes and it must be more than half the enrollment. Sounds like Urbanna Part 2.

[Fightingscot82]

What constitutes "getting them going?" I mean that seriously and not tongue in cheek. I think that's a worthy discussion. With the transient nature of college football, and college athletics in general now, I'm not sure the sport is set up to allow "bad programs" to "get going" ever again. Because the second somebody "shows out" (as the kids say) for Lock Haven, they are hitting the portal. The second that the planets do in fact align, and they win a few games, that coach is on the first bus out of town to another opportunity, along with many of his players.

We're seeing and talking about this at the bus league level, but the discussion is the same at the FBS level. With the direction this is trending, what purpose is there for many of these schools to actually field the sport?

I know the reasons why many will say there's a purpose (we've talked about them many times before), but long-term, I don't understand how at some point most of these schools don't open this same conversation (even at the FBS level). I do believe that at some point what's occurred to this point since the portal, and the direction this is all heading with more transiency, NIL money, etc., it will long term result in less programs (at all levels) and fewer opportunities for scholarships.

For the PASSHE schools, the net tuition is always going to be positive. The amount of money 100ish guys paying tuition far surpasses what it costs to run the program, especially at the struggling schools that have reduced staff & spending. Cutting football might save $400k at Lock Haven but they'll also lose $1.25 million in tuition when they all transfer. Very, very few of the players on our rosters would have attended that school without football. The portal has shown us players will transfer with less than a year left before graduation if they still have eligibility.

[IUP24]

For the PASSHE schools, the net tuition is always going to be positive. The amount of money 100ish guys paying tuition far surpasses what it costs to run the program, especially at the struggling schools that have reduced staff & spending. Cutting football might save $400k at Lock Haven but they'll also lose $1.25 million in tuition when they all transfer. Very, very few of the players on our rosters would have attended that school without football. The portal has shown us players will transfer with less than a year left before graduation if they still have eligibility.

I understand the purpose, as we've documented all of these same reasons before. I get it. I understand the financials. I understand the enrollment boost from sports. I understand all of it. I recognize that you have worked in university offices before, so perhaps your vantage point is different, but this is a wholistic conversation. And it's not limited to Lock Haven. I'm sure you have access to the operating budgets, and I'm just shooting from the hip, but I think it costs far more than 400k to run a football program at most schools.

An Analysis Of College Football Return On Investment (athleticdirectoru.com)

I know that the article in that link is speaking to FBS football exclusively, but that's a significant chunk of money. Even at that level, at some point, somebody is going to ask the question if it's worth getting a check once a year to go to the Big House to get rocked in front of 100,000 people. So I get it. With a smaller operating budget at a school like Lock Haven, the downside of chopping football is the loss of tuition dollars. But at a small(er) FBS program with a mid-level enrollment that is much higher than a school Lock Haven's size, is that 20+ million dollars they are spending to just keep 80-100 people enrolled at the school actually worth it?

The conversation far exceeds Lock Haven. There's so much money in this now. Forget operating budgets, it's going to soon cost some of these schools millions of dollars just to have enough bodies to put in uniforms due to the NIL/collective angle of this. You can disagree all you want, but at some point (and I'm not saying it's tomorrow or the next day), some of these universities are eventually going to realize they are going to be okay not fielding a team with limited opportunities to contend or field a winning program.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I understand the purpose, as we've documented all of these same reasons before. I get it. I understand the financials. I understand the enrollment boost from sports. I understand all of it. I recognize that you have worked in university offices before, so perhaps your vantage point is different, but this is a wholistic conversation. And it's not limited to Lock Haven. I'm sure you have access to the operating budgets, and I'm just shooting from the hip, but I think it costs far more than 400k to run a football program at most schools.

An Analysis Of College Football Return On Investment (athleticdirectoru.com)

I know that the article in that link is speaking to FBS football exclusively, but that's a significant chunk of money. Even at that level, at some point, somebody is going to ask the question if it's worth getting a check once a year to go to the Big House to get rocked in front of 100,000 people. So I get it. With a smaller operating budget at a school like Lock Haven, the downside of chopping football is the loss of tuition dollars. But at a small(er) FBS program with a mid-level enrollment that is much higher than a school Lock Haven's size, is that 20+ million dollars they are spending to just keep 80-100 people enrolled at the school actually worth it?

The conversation far exceeds Lock Haven. There's so much money in this now. Forget operating budgets, it's going to soon cost some of these schools millions of dollars just to have enough bodies to put in uniforms due to the NIL/collective angle of this. You can disagree all you want, but at some point (and I'm not saying it's tomorrow or the next day), some of these universities are eventually going to realize they are going to be okay not fielding a team with limited opportunities to contend or field a winning program.

As I always say, the PSAC is worse than MLB. The same teams win every year. The same teams lose every year. The middle teams pretty much stay in the middle.

The bottom dwellers have no chance. They are simply developmental teams at this point (i.e. farm teams).

To your question, yes, it is worth even said bottom dwellers in our league to keep their programs. Those 100-ish bodies, one way or another, all pay tuition. Travel is relatively cheap in the PSAC.

[iupgroundhog]

For the PASSHE schools, the net tuition is always going to be positive. The amount of money 100ish guys paying tuition far surpasses what it costs to run the program, especially at the struggling schools that have reduced staff & spending. Cutting football might save $400k at Lock Haven but they'll also lose $1.25 million in tuition when they all transfer. Very, very few of the players on our rosters would have attended that school without football. The portal has shown us players will transfer with less than a year left before graduation if they still have eligibility.

I, too, think the decision to drop a football program goes beyond the pure accounting math. For example, what are the factors which led Mansfield and Cheyney to shut their intercollegiate teams down?

In the case of LH, I don't think having a perennially bad team shuts it down or it would have already happened. Plus, it would be a Commobnwealth U. decision now.

[Ship69]

What constitutes "getting them going?" I mean that seriously and not tongue in cheek. I think that's a worthy discussion. With the transient nature of college football, and college athletics in general now, I'm not sure the sport is set up to allow "bad programs" to "get going" ever again. Because the second somebody "shows out" (as the kids say) for Lock Haven, they are hitting the portal. The second that the planets do in fact align, and they win a few games, that coach is on the first bus out of town to another opportunity, along with many of his players.

We're seeing and talking about this at the bus league level, but the discussion is the same at the FBS level. With the direction this is trending, what purpose is there for many of these schools to actually field the sport?

I know the reasons why many will say there's a purpose (we've talked about them many times before), but long-term, I don't understand how at some point most of these schools don't open this same conversation (even at the FBS level). I do believe that at some point what's occurred to this point since the portal, and the direction this is all heading with more transiency, NIL money, etc., it will long term result in less programs (at all levels) and fewer opportunities for scholarships.

The improvement at Millersville, which has been in the doldrums for years, would appear to indicate that it's not impossible to make progress. The question of course is whether they can hang on to enough of the players to keep the ball rolling. Lock Haven, bundled into a merger with two other campuses and located in a relatively remote part of the state, might be another story as it faces more institutional difficulties than Millersville.

[iupgroundhog]

The improvement at Millersville, which has been in the doldrums for years, would appear to indicate that it's not impossible to make progress. The question of course is whether they can hang on to enough of the players to keep the ball rolling. Lock Haven, bundled into a merger with two other campuses and located in a relatively remote part of the state, might be another story as it faces more institutional difficulties than Millersville.

The recruiting for the new guy at LH is not local, though. He's reaching far and wide.

[Ship69]

As I always say, the PSAC is worse than MLB. The same teams win every year. The same teams lose every year. The middle teams pretty much stay in the middle.

The bottom dwellers have no chance. They are simply developmental teams at this point (i.e. farm teams).

To your question, yes, it is worth even said bottom dwellers in our league to keep their programs. Those 100-ish bodies, one way or another, all pay tuition. Travel is relatively cheap in the PSAC.

It'll be interesting to see if the same financial considerations apply if NIL drifts down to the D2 level with any force. The financial argument is a powerful one, but at some point I'd think you would tire of watching your school constantly take 50-0 poundings on the field. Being considered the league patsy is not wonderful for the school's image. But I guess money will win out.

[IUP24]

As I always say, the PSAC is worse than MLB. The same teams win every year. The same teams lose every year. The middle teams pretty much stay in the middle.

The bottom dwellers have no chance. They are simply developmental teams at this point (i.e. farm teams).

To your question, yes, it is worth even said bottom dwellers in our league to keep their programs. Those 100-ish bodies, one way or another, all pay tuition. Travel is relatively cheap in the PSAC.

Wholistically though, outside of Lock Haven (and the PSAC), it's not the same conversation. They have 2,400 students. Perhaps those 100 bodies do mean something. For a school like Akron (and to be clear, I'm just using them as an example because I know the response will be, "well they just built a new football stadium!"), where they typically have an enrollment between 12,000-14,000 do those 100 bodies mean as much? They earn the university a check every year by getting their heads bashed in at State College or Columbus, but for the sake of the conversation, I am going to say that at some point for a number of those types of schools, somebody will eventually answer that question with a resounding, "no."