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  • #76
    Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

    Does Eastern Michigan being a middle-of-the-road MAC school get any more good press than GV winning national championships, though? Yea, they get better athletes, just because that's the nature of the beast, but the results aren't there as a result. GV is the Michigan/USC/Texas/Stanford of D-II right now, when it comes to department-wide success. Are we better off being that? Or better off going to FCS/D1 and hoping to be....Eastern Michigan?

    As you noted, my issue is that, as you said with basketball, the extent of "success" for the D2's who have moved up to FCS in basketball has been one first-round March Madness upset. That's hardly a blip on the radar. I'd rather be competing for the Final Four in D-II basketball than the ceiling being a first-round upset in March Madness.
    When was the last time GVSU mens basketball was even close to the final 4? Women have had some success but men...nope...

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    • #77
      Originally posted by MrsThortonMelon View Post

      When was the last time GVSU mens basketball was even close to the final 4? Women have had some success but men...nope...
      It was purely an example. Plug any sport in there. It stands for all sports outside of football and cross country. Those are the only two that would be able to keep competing for national championships in D1 for any of our lifetimes, most likely. The rest of the sports just don't have the parity. The amount of non-P5 schools that win D1 national championships in anything are limited to the fringe sports that don't have full participation (like men's volleyball, for example) and the once-in-a-while-upset like Coastal Carolina baseball a few years back. Northern Arizona in cross country is the powerhouse, and I would think GV could compete with that. But everything else? We'd just be hoping for a mid-major conference championship and fodder in the first round of the national tournament for a P5 school. Hoping to pull a 14/3 first-round upset in men's basketball March Madness once every 30 years is not a sustainable plan. UMBC was a great story for about a month, and now what?

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Irishlaker View Post
        Can't agree more with Kle that moving to D1 and incurring that expense seems like a lousy exchange: We would have to HOPE to be nationally relevant in football within a few years; we would have to accept that we'll be little more than fodder for the blue bloods in everything else; we would have to lay out significantly more money in order to make it happen.

        Now, given the overall lack of health of the GLIAC I can understand GV wanting to have an "action-oriented" mentality. No sense in having another shoe drop and we really get stuck in an even tougher spot than we already are. And, I do understand that we don't exactly "look like" a lot of the rest of D2 any longer. All of that said, this sure seems like a move whose payoff is severely limited...if there even is one. If someone can explain what exactly it is we would get by moving up that I am missing, I'm all ears...
        You would save money on trophy cases.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

          It was purely an example. Plug any sport in there. It stands for all sports outside of football and cross country. Those are the only two that would be able to keep competing for national championships in D1 for any of our lifetimes, most likely. The rest of the sports just don't have the parity. The amount of non-P5 schools that win D1 national championships in anything are limited to the fringe sports that don't have full participation (like men's volleyball, for example) and the once-in-a-while-upset like Coastal Carolina baseball a few years back. Northern Arizona in cross country is the powerhouse, and I would think GV could compete with that. But everything else? We'd just be hoping for a mid-major conference championship and fodder in the first round of the national tournament for a P5 school. Hoping to pull a 14/3 first-round upset in men's basketball March Madness once every 30 years is not a sustainable plan. UMBC was a great story for about a month, and now what?
          This and what Kle said above is the same thing I've been saying for a long while.

          I remember the Coastal win because I am a Sun Belt fan and the Chants upset my Arizona Wildcats for the title; still a little salty about it. On the UMBC win, the only time I think about it is when someone brings it up and I still could not tell you what year it happened. I couldn't even tell you who won the 2021 D1 men's basketball title except that I'm sure it was a P5 school.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by UFOILERFAN View Post

            You would save money on trophy cases.
            LOL...Touche'.

            That said, I still am just struggling with the justification. Again, if our impetus is to get out in front of our own destiny vs. waiting for what happens next with our current league, I absolutely understand that. I still just can't get my ahead around the dollars. Eastern, Western, and Central are all egregious examples of schools that annually siphon MILLIONS out of their general funds to pay for their athletic departments, and net (at least to my eye) little to no appreciable gain for those dollars spent. Michigan, Michigan State, and Notre Dame get the lion's share of the local media coverage, there aren't "winning traditions" for those MAC schools to market, and their enrollments haven't netted a benefit as a result of their branding. To me, it seems like money simply being thrown out the window...sans the idea that the are giving more kids a chance at getting an education, but the number of additional kids being provided that opportunity strikes me as coming at a cost so large it's hard to tie a believable story of value around it.

            As GV begins to focus on what it wants to become institutionally in both the short and the long term, there may be a rationale that makes sense. As a fan of the school and of the consistent success our teams have had, I'm still not seeing it. I like that we win. I like that we can market well in our limited sphere (sometimes it's nice to have a niche). I just feel like a move up won't net us anything in those areas...in fact, one could argue that a lot of the luxuries we have enjoyed as a result of the niche we have carved will no longer be there. Seems hard to justify that huge jump in spending, only to realize a reduction in the luxuries we have acquired...not to mention less success on the field...

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            • #81
              All kidding aside, does the GLIAC not seem like it is doomed at this point? It feels like there's no way you'll convince NAIA's like Concordia-Ann Arbor with an enrollment of around 1,100 kids and started football less than 10 years ago, to jump into a league with GVSU, Ferris State, Wayne State...it would be a blood bath. Now with Ashland and Northwood out, it feels like a matter of time before GVSU decides it's time to jump ship, go Division I, officially ending the GLIAC. Rumors are that the relationship between GV and the GLIAC have been toxic and that the commissioner of the GLIAC is not doing much to appease what is very clearly the lifeline of the conference. I don't know, it just doesn't feel like that league can survive, which is wild because less than a decade ago it was widely revered as one of the best in the country.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by KleShreen View Post

                Does Eastern Michigan being a middle-of-the-road MAC school get any more good press than GV winning national championships, though? Yea, they get better athletes, just because that's the nature of the beast, but the results aren't there as a result. GV is the Michigan/USC/Texas/Stanford of D-II right now, when it comes to department-wide success. Are we better off being that? Or better off going to FCS/D1 and hoping to be....Eastern Michigan?

                As you noted, my issue is that, as you said with basketball, the extent of "success" for the D2's who have moved up to FCS in basketball has been one first-round March Madness upset. That's hardly a blip on the radar. I'd rather be competing for the Final Four in D-II basketball than the ceiling being a first-round upset in March Madness.
                Athletically speaking, yes a DII Final Four probably means more. But in terms of dollars, it would be interesting to argue, because on a national scale, a first-round upset by a mid-major brings more national attention to a program than a DII Final Four ever will. People don't remember DII champions, but they remember UMBC, FGCU, George Mason, etc. It's an interesting subject for sure.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by GetOily View Post

                  Athletically speaking, yes a DII Final Four probably means more. But in terms of dollars, it would be interesting to argue, because on a national scale, a first-round upset by a mid-major brings more national attention to a program than a DII Final Four ever will. People don't remember DII champions, but they remember UMBC, FGCU, George Mason, etc. It's an interesting subject for sure.
                  You make a good point. I think a fitting example is Butler here in Indiana. Before their NCAA tourney success, the were a forgettable mid-major with problems drawing in enrollment much like Valparaiso or Evansville. Their enrollment has boomed over the last 10 years, and now it can be rather hard to get in due to the massive amount of applications they get in.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by GetOily View Post

                    Athletically speaking, yes a DII Final Four probably means more. But in terms of dollars, it would be interesting to argue, because on a national scale, a first-round upset by a mid-major brings more national attention to a program than a DII Final Four ever will. People don't remember DII champions, but they remember UMBC, FGCU, George Mason, etc. It's an interesting subject for sure.
                    The barrier to entry just to accomplish that is massive. How often is it going to happen? What is the likelihood of it ever happening at all? And why limit your athletic program's success to a ceiling of "maybe we'll get a 13-seed in the tournament sometime and pull an upset"? At that point, you are no longer an educational institution providing athletic opportunities for students. You are chasing dollars as a business, hoping for a payoff on the academic side, with the athletes also happening to go to class once in a while.

                    For every UMBC or FGCU or George Mason, there's 12 other teams in their same conferences that have never done anything of note.

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