Northwood Exit and Expansion Discussion

[Redwing]

I'm not holding my breath, but I am expecting some additional changes to the GLIAC. It'll be new teams coming in or the big dogs(no reference intended at all) departing for different scenery. If it wasn't for football, the GLIAC would be pretty secure, but we know football is a big component of the current conference. 10 years ago, I couldn't see any team moving up. Today, my opinion is thinking some of the schools are thinking it may be time. Respective of all other valid/invalid reasons, the current condition of the GLIAC just may be THE factor to push things over the edge.

[KleShreen]

Why would anyone want GV's ceiling in athletics to be mid-major conference championships and maybe pulling an upset in the first round of March Madness every 30 years? Are those things more beneficial than D2 national titles? I don't think they are. But if smarter people than me think they are, then my opinion is useless lol.

[Redwing]

Why would anyone want GV's ceiling in athletics to be mid-major conference championships and maybe pulling an upset in the first round of March Madness every 30 years? Are those things more beneficial than D2 national titles? I don't think they are. But if smarter people than me think they are, then my opinion is useless lol.

That's a valid perspective, but I think many of us here are in the minority. It might not be right away, but GV could clearly compete for the FCS football natty. As for the other sports, you're spot on. But yes, I think the average fan would attend an OOC D1 basketball game with a recognizable D1 school vs GV playing Findlay. As for the rest of the sports, unfortunately, fans don't care and the student athletes might have to focus on conf. championship as the ceiling. So true, it'll be up to those athletes accepting that. But, look around MI. How many of these athletes take the D1 route vs being on a top d2 team?

It's unfortunate that the GLIAC members haven't found away to keep those schools that left in the conference.

[Irishlaker]

I think the "bottom feeder" term requires an alignment of context. You're 100% correct that GV could compete well WITHIN a mid-major conference. I think Kle's point (and it is one I agree with) is that on a NATIONAL level, pretty much any league outside of the Power 5 is a bottom-feeder. I'm not sure how the contrary could be argued. So, while we could definitely be competitive on an intra-conference basis, I don't see how that helps us...particularly when looking through the lens of the SIGNIFICANT additional expense that is tied to it.

I'm not a fan of trying to add a bunch of NAIA schools to the GLIAC either. With that said, I disagree with the premise that the GR market will be more interested in GV by a move up. Your post references "bigger name opponents". The Horizon League is our most logical destination as a D1 conference, and I would argue that the GR market will be LESS interested in our playing IUPUI, Wright State, Green Bay, and the like. Those aren't "big name" opponents for one, and they are teams no on really knows are actually D1. At least people around GR know who Ferris, Saggy, Tech and Davenport ARE. The casual fan doesn't really perceive any difference between any of theses schools anyway. I have a buddy who is a diehard MSU fan/alum and football season ticket holder, who literally thought that MAC schools were D2. Given the general lack of true understanding by the public of how college athletics actually function, I find it really funny that people think moving up to D1 will somehow have us playing "big name schools" and it will give us a benefit. Sure, will a Big 10 or ACC school schedule us for a November of December tune-up game at their place in Hoops? Yep. We can go get beat by 28, maybe pick-up a small check, and have our name show up on ESPN for a day as another "also-ran" who went to UNC and got clobbered early in the year. I mean, how many times did MSU play Arkansas Pine-Bluff early in the season? Last I checked, that school doesn't have any other athletic notoriety, and I doubt very seriously that MSU ever went to play a game at their place. The bottom line is that GR is a UM/MSU market. Notre Dame gets a little love for being a pinch closer than UM is, and because BK coaches there. GV gets the run it does because it wins on a NATIONAL level. WMU Football got plenty of run at the end of the Fleck era because they were unbeaten, and receiving a bit of NATIONAL credibility. If we want the GR market behind us, we need to be able to show we're winning national tournaments...that goes away the INSTANT we become a D1 school.

I don't get a say, but my preferred mode would be to let it ride for another couple of years. Cobbling football schedules together will have some difficulty, but the rest of the league and its sports are on decent footing. I'd like to see what happens how/when the P5 split off and the NCAA has to either dissolve or reorganize. Once the P5 are gone, THEN we could adjust our positioning and actually have a fighting to chance to derive some value out of the change and actually justify the expense involved...

[BeachinLaker]

Why would anyone want GV's ceiling in athletics to be mid-major conference championships and maybe pulling an upset in the first round of March Madness every 30 years? Are those things more beneficial than D2 national titles? I don't think they are. But if smarter people than me think they are, then my opinion is useless lol.

[KleShreen]

At current time, yea, GV is a very female-dominated program in terms of athletic success. But that is all cyclical. It was only 10-12 years ago that football, men's basketball, and baseball were all dominating, and women's basketball and softball were struggling. Now, it is women's basketball and softball doing well while men's basketball and baseball are struggling. But it'll all swing back-and-forth, probably forever. Of course, as long as Jerry Baltes is around, the XC/T&F teams on both sides are going to keep dominating. I have no idea how GV keeps him around. He's already one of the best T&F/XC coaches in the history of the nation, and he seems like he's going to be a GV lifer if he hasn't left already. That's amazing.

Soccer has been, obviously, amazing pretty much since it started. But my worry with women's soccer would be that despite how dominant we are at D2, you're not going to keep up with established powerhouses like UNC or any places out west where all the high-level talent flocks to. Those athletes aren't going to come to West Michigan, no matter how good it looks like the program is. There might be a one-off situation like when Akron won the men's title not too long ago, but by and large, that's a sport where the high-level talent is going to rise to the top.

If D1 were to happen, I would fully expect XC to compete for D1 national titles. Right now, Northern Arizona is the most dominant XC program in the country. GV can compete with that. I don't think T&F would happen, because just like soccer, the Olympic-level talent is going to flock to the established huge programs like LSU, Stanford, USC, etc., for our entire lives. The built-in access to high-level training in those spots is always going to keep the pinnacle out of reach.

All the other sports are just going to top out at maybe making an appearance in a national tournament once in a while if they win the conference. There will never be a shot for another national title in basketball, baseball/softball, volleyball, tennis, golf, soccer, T&F, swimming. The only hopes for national titles anymore would be XC and maybe football, but even then, football would only be able to ever compete at the FCS level. And is that any more significant to boosting the school's profile than D2 football success?

I think people see a former GV rival in NDSU and think GV can reach that level of success. But do you know that NDSU's level of success has had to be to even be a blip on the national radar? 8 national titles in 9 years lol. And even with that, they got a couple College Gameday shows, and what else? Their enrollment hasn't benefited from that success. They were at a little over 14k students in 2009, and they're at under 13k now. So even that incredible level of success by their biggest athletic program hasn't done anything for the school as a whole. Their other sports programs aren't tearing anything up. The men's basketball team got in the tournament a couple times, and beat #5 seed Oklahoma in the first round in 2014. They made the tournament three other times, and have gotten shelled. That just doesn't appeal to me. I'd much rather always be an actual competitor for a national title at D2 in every sport than need every single thing to go right to win a national title in 1 or 2 sports at D1, and be nothing but a glorified practice for larger schools in every other sport. I understand that GV has some programs that haven't been serious contenders for national titles consistently, but at least every year you know there's a chance of winning one. If you're in D1, you're already eliminated from winning a national title in 3/4ths of the sports before the season even starts because of your conference and your prestige.

[D2Ohio]

I have no idea, but MV is one tough conference. Its members seem a lot further away. Educate me.. how does OVC having one affiliate member impact MV being a more likely option for GV to go?

Sorry late to respond. Some conferences are not apt to take on affiliate members in "money" sports. I get the perception that OVC is one of those conferences from history, I'd think if they did accept affiliate for football, schools like Youngstown and Robert Morris would be there.

[Redwing]

I do strongly lean to GV (and others) remaining D2. But I think that's just a personal bias. IMO, a major factor is just the classification of D1 V D2. I think most of us here understand D1/D2. However, almost every athlete (yes there are a few exceptions) in HS will take that D1 offer over D2. Even though the D1 school may even be average at that sport, they'll take that D1 offer over a D2 that has a chance for a Natty. I can't totally explain it, but that's the landscape out there. So, in the end, overall, the D1 school will have better student athletes. Again, there will be a few exceptions at every sport, but overall, that's the case. Just a factor to keep in mind.

[UFOILERFAN]

Eventually we will be seeing a statement from a couple of schools that states "As always, we will be doing what we consider to be best for our student athletes."

[KleShreen]

I do strongly lean to GV (and others) remaining D2. But I think that's just a personal bias. IMO, a major factor is just the classification of D1 V D2. I think most of us here understand D1/D2. However, almost every athlete (yes there are a few exceptions) in HS will take that D1 offer over D2. Even though the D1 school may even be average at that sport, they'll take that D1 offer over a D2 that has a chance for a Natty. I can't totally explain it, but that's the landscape out there. So, in the end, overall, the D1 school will have better student athletes. Again, there will be a few exceptions at every sport, but overall, that's the case. Just a factor to keep in mind.

Well that's usually because the D1 offers are full rides and D2 offers usually aren't besides for basketball. I don't know if there's any teams at GV where everyone on scholarship is on a full ride besides men's and women's basketball. Maybe volleyball? Golf/tennis since they're smaller? A lot of teams at GV don't even offer the maximum amount of scholarships, last I knew.

[Irishlaker]

A lot of teams at GV don't even offer the maximum amount of scholarships, last I knew.

This is true, but only for the men. Pretty sure all women's sports at GV are fully funded...

[Redwing]

Well that's usually because the D1 offers are full rides and D2 offers usually aren't besides for basketball. I don't know if there's any teams at GV where everyone on scholarship is on a full ride besides men's and women's basketball. Maybe volleyball? Golf/tennis since they're smaller? A lot of teams at GV don't even offer the maximum amount of scholarships, last I knew.

I don't believe that D! offers are all full ride. Even in football, there are 85 equiv.. and most teams have more than that on the team. As for the other sports, I suspect the numbers are much lower. So, there likely are more athletic dollars available, but I'm not so sure there are necessarily more total dollars there. Still, my point is, the better athlete typically attends the D1 school over the D2 school... for whatever reason(s.)

[Columbuseer]

I don't believe that D! offers are all full ride. Even in football, there are 85 equiv.. and most teams have more than that on the team. As for the other sports, I suspect the numbers are much lower. So, there likely are more athletic dollars available, but I'm not so sure there are necessarily more total dollars there. Still, my point is, the better athlete typically attends the D1 school over the D2 school... for whatever reason(s.)

For d1 football and basketball, they are all full rides, 85 and 13 respectively in non-covid normal years, unlike d2. Rest above 85 and 13 are preferred walk ons. Check out ncaa.com for more info.

[KleShreen]

I don't believe that D! offers are all full ride. Even in football, there are 85 equiv.. and most teams have more than that on the team. As for the other sports, I suspect the numbers are much lower. So, there likely are more athletic dollars available, but I'm not so sure there are necessarily more total dollars there. Still, my point is, the better athlete typically attends the D1 school over the D2 school... for whatever reason(s.)

I'm not saying every player on every team is on a full ride. But in D1, the scholarship students are on full rides, not partial like in D2. The 36 scholarships for football in D2 are split up among 90 guys (for example). The 85 scholarships in D1 are 85 full rides to 85 players. The same goes for the other sports. There might be 16 players on a D1 basketball team, but 13 of them are on full rides and the other 3 are non-scholarship. So in D2, the kickass football player might be getting a scholarship offer of in-state tuition (if from out of state) and paying for half their tuition (for example), while their MAC offer would be a full ride. So they'll almost always take the MAC offer. Again, that's just an example. I'm guessing most D2 schools would offer a full scholarship to someone who is holding a D1 offer, as well, but not always.

[Redwing]

I'm not saying every player on every team is on a full ride. But in D1, the scholarship students are on full rides, not partial like in D2. The 36 scholarships for football in D2 are split up among 90 guys (for example). The 85 scholarships in D1 are 85 full rides to 85 players. The same goes for the other sports. There might be 16 players on a D1 basketball team, but 13 of them are on full rides and the other 3 are non-scholarship. So in D2, the kickass football player might be getting a scholarship offer of in-state tuition (if from out of state) and paying for half their tuition (for example), while their MAC offer would be a full ride. So they'll almost always take the MAC offer. Again, that's just an example. I'm guessing most D2 schools would offer a full scholarship to someone who is holding a D1 offer, as well, but not always.

I get the headcount sports.. but Women's soccer, track, etc.. I'm pretty sure it's all over the place. I'm still not clear on FCS football (See below)I got this after I originally posted. FCS does indeed have PARTIAL scholarships. Us older guys aren't always wrong eh scooter? LOL

FCS schools are limited to financial assistance amounting to a maximum of 63 full scholarships, although some conferences voluntarily place further restrictions on athletic aid. The NCAA classifies FBS football as a "head-count" sport, meaning that each player receiving any athletically-related aid from the school counts fully against the 85-player limit. By contrast, FCS football is classified as an "equivalency" sport, which means that scholarship aid is limited to the equivalent of a specified number of full scholarships. In turn, this means that FCS schools can freely grant partial scholarships, but are also limited to a total of 85 players receiving assistance. Another NCAA rule mandates that any multi-sport athlete who plays football and receives any athletic aid is counted against the football limit, with an exception for players in non-scholarship FCS programs who receive aid in another sport.

I hope this helps to set us all straight on this Scholly thing. So yes, FCS does allow for partials, but limits the actual players that can receive them to 85/team.