West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[Scrub]

Tactics for increasing opponent fatigue - comments welcome

Minimizing frequency and duration of opponent rest periods and maximizing uninterrupted duration of anaerobic activity (e.g., sprints) without even short rest breaks is key to building up residual oxygen debt and lactic acid buildup ("heavy legs") in well conditioned athletes.

One can see it in opponents after half time. Opponent plays fast for about the first 5 mins and then fades, for the threshold of fatigue onset is lower, due to the incomplete muscle recovery from the first half.

How can wlu increase the rate of return on investment of the incredible effort wlu expends in pressuring opponents?

Some ideas in no particular order -

1. Don't let opponent rest on offense by letting the ball stick. Rapid ball movement and movement without ball does not allow players to rest. Excessive dribbling allows 4 opponents not guarding the ball to rest on defense.

2. Minimize time between wlu committing a foul and the resumption of play. Don't talk to refs. Just get the ball asap to ref and get in position for the free throw or out of bounds play. Never saw a ref change a call based on your words so it is a waste of time. Stay in the moment.

3. On wlu score don't let ball roll around before opponent starts in bounds play. Ask ref asap if u can pick up the ball and pass it to ref. Opponent is buying time by not getting the ball.

4. when wiping up sweat off the floor, the floor crew should move like a Nascar pit crew during a pit stop rather than senior citizens tending a garden. Time them and give them free food and recognition as rewards for beating time objectives.

5. opponents have only 10 secs to shoot a free throw. Asrc fans should start counting when player receives ball, to distract shooter rhythm if nothing else.

6. I heard that media timeout may now coincide with first time out before its scheduled time. If true, one could call time out 5 seconds into the second half, which would eliminate the under 16:00 media timeout. This could provide at least 7:55 seconds of pressure before getting media time out and might force opponent to use time outs early.

Just two quick comments for now:

Point #3: I noticed that happening more and more this season (much more than in years past). It became clear that opponents were using a "slow pickup" after a WLU make as a way to get their wind back and get organized. That's a reasonable response to WLU's style by opponents. But, yes, if there's a way to get the ref the ball and have him/her hurrying up the opponent, that would certainly help.

Point #6: That must have been the rule back when Crutch led WLU to one of their Final Fours. I have a very distinct memory of WLU, who had possession coming out of the half, inbounding the ball and immediately calling a time out, thereby forcing the "under 16" media timeout to take place with 19:59 on the clock. LONG time for an opponent to last to make it to the next media timeout for a break.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Just two quick comments for now:

Point #3: I noticed that happening more and more this season (much more than in years past). It became clear that opponents were using a "slow pickup" after a WLU make as a way to get their wind back and get organized. That's a reasonable response to WLU's style by opponents. But, yes, if there's a way to get the ref the ball and have him/her hurrying up the opponent, that would certainly help.

Point #6: That must have been the rule back when Crutch led WLU to one of their Final Fours. I have a very distinct memory of WLU, who had possession coming out of the half, inbounding the ball and immediately calling a time out, thereby forcing the "under 16" media timeout to take place with 19:59 on the clock. LONG time for an opponent to last to make it to the next media timeout for a break.

The games I watched I'm not sure I agree with No. 3. Seemed to me WL prefers to not get the ball to the ref or inbounder on purpose as it lets them set up the press. The teams I saw have the most success ... came when they could inbound it quickly.

[Columbuseer]

The games I watched I'm not sure I agree with No. 3. Seemed to me WL prefers to not get the ball to the ref or inbounder on purpose as it lets them set up the press. The teams I saw have the most success ... came when they could inbound it quickly.

I agree that getting the ball in quickly is a good strategy (even though wlu makes the offense to defense transition much more quickly than most teams , and defense to offense too). The absence of that strategy by some opponents is what is confusing me. The ball is rolling around on the court close to the end line and opponents are making no effort to retrieve the ball. Sometimes 10 seconds elapse before the ref finally assures the wlu player that it is OK for them to retrieve the ball. It is so counter-intuitive that I am assuming it is a delaying tactic.

Interesting that wlu could get a delay of game warning for touching the ball but the opponent does not get a similar warning for not retrieving the ball. Maybe the ref should start the 5 second count when stalling is obvious.

[boatcapt]

The games I watched I'm not sure I agree with No. 3. Seemed to me WL prefers to not get the ball to the ref or inbounder on purpose as it lets them set up the press. The teams I saw have the most success ... came when they could inbound it quickly.

I think WLU would be happy if a team tried that tactic because it plays into their hand. They want you to get their opponent moving quickly in one aspect of the game which leads to a team moving quickly in the rest of the game. Not many teams are diciplined enough to push the ball hard into the offensive end and not push it all the way to the rim. Not a lot of teams that are diciplined enough to pull back on the throttle to run a slow deliberate offense (the OTHER way people have said to beat WLU).

I've said this before, while WLU is certainly trying to get the turnover with their press, equally important is to get their opponent moving faster than they are used to which tends to increase fatigue (blackout).

[Chuck Norris]

Just two quick comments for now:

Point #3: I noticed that happening more and more this season (much more than in years past). It became clear that opponents were using a "slow pickup" after a WLU make as a way to get their wind back and get organized. That's a reasonable response to WLU's style by opponents. But, yes, if there's a way to get the ref the ball and have him/her hurrying up the opponent, that would certainly help.

Point #6: That must have been the rule back when Crutch led WLU to one of their Final Fours. I have a very distinct memory of WLU, who had possession coming out of the half, inbounding the ball and immediately calling a time out, thereby forcing the "under 16" media timeout to take place with 19:59 on the clock. LONG time for an opponent to last to make it to the next media timeout for a break.

[Columbuseer]

Found it. Goes into effect this season.
Be interesting to see if wlu uses a timeout 5 secs into each half... goal is to shorten elapsed time of games. Assume it applies to d2 also.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021...n#Rule_changes

• Team timeouts can serve as/replace media timeouts (e.g., team calls timeout at the 18-minute mark in a half, that would be used as the under-16-minute media timeout).

[Chuck Norris]

Found it. Goes into effect this season.
Be interesting to see if wlu uses a timeout 5 secs into each half... goal is to shorten elapsed time of games. Assume it applies to d2 also.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021...n#Rule_changes

• Team timeouts can serve as/replace media timeouts (e.g., team calls timeout at the 18-minute mark in a half, that would be used as the under-16-minute media timeout).

If team A calls an immediate timeout to start the game/half, can team B call one once the clock goes under 16 that would become the under 12 timeout? I suppose in that scenario you would still run into a pretty long stretch of time without a media timeout at some point. Could be interesting to see how it would play out.

[Columbuseer]

If team A calls an immediate timeout to start the game/half, can team B call one once the clock goes under 16 that would become the under 12 timeout? I suppose in that scenario you would still run into a pretty long stretch of time without a media timeout at some point. Could be interesting to see how it would play out.

That is the way I understand it. In general, wlu is dearth to call time outs unless players go really off the rails for an extended period. Often they call rolling time outs just to sub in players. They typically take their use it or lose it time out near end of 1st half to set up a 2 for 1 possession play. Wonder if they take it now at beginning of first half? Could the opponent (team b) now call time outs solely because of fatigue, thus limiting end game options?

For most teams, this rule would present no significant advantage, unless a fast paced, pressing team is involved. Glad our MEC opponents were not on committee or they likely would have objected vociferously! Lol

[Columbuseer]

https://statsbywill.com/2019/06/19/b...ter-actions/2/

[boatcapt]

https://statsbywill.com/2019/06/19/b...ter-actions/2/

The implication is that the "occasional fans" of which I count myself want WLU to play a center (actually a power forward) centric offense IN PLACE OF WLU's current style. I think I've been pretty clear that that is NOT want I want. What I am and always have advocated is to have a secondary offensive style...somthing sufficiently different that it forces our opponent to prepare differently and change what they are doing in a game. There is also a LOT of distance between a "back to the basket" only center and what WLU currently considers a big (basically, a shooting guard who just happens to be taller). WLU has many, MANY shooters and Ben can mix and match them in almost limitless combinations. Hard to believe that a coach like him would be unwilling to give up even one of his 15 Knights for just one Rook.

But clearly that is never going to happen. We will continue to put all our eggs in one style and player type basket...rumble through most conference regular seasons and MEC tourneys at or near the top. Be the 2 or 3 SR1 seed and occasionally compete for the #1 seed...win the SR1 Championship every few years and hope to avoid the #1 seed in the E8 game. Hope every year that our players get on a "don't miss" hot streak at the right time and that can carry us to a NC.

[Columbuseer]

The implication is that the "occasional fans" of which I count myself want WLU to play a center (actually a power forward) centric offense IN PLACE OF WLU's current style. I think I've been pretty clear that that is NOT want I want. What I am and always have advocated is to have a secondary offensive style...somthing sufficiently different that it forces our opponent to prepare differently and change what they are doing in a game. There is also a LOT of distance between a "back to the basket" only center and what WLU currently considers a big (basically, a shooting guard who just happens to be taller). WLU has many, MANY shooters and Ben can mix and match them in almost limitless combinations. Hard to believe that a coach like him would be unwilling to give up even one of his 15 Knights for just one Rook.

But clearly that is never going to happen. We will continue to put all our eggs in one style and player type basket...rumble through most conference regular seasons and MEC tourneys at or near the top. Be the 2 or 3 SR1 seed and occasionally compete for the #1 seed...win the SR1 Championship every few years and hope to avoid the #1 seed in the E8 game. Hope every year that our players get on a "don't miss" hot streak at the right time and that can carry us to a NC.

Fyi: Occasionally was not an adjective for fans. It is an adverb that means the topic arises from time to time. Did not want u to think it was a dig on any fan.

I think we just have different opinions on the relative difficulty of learning to playing two styles effectively against the high level competition that one would encounter in the regionals. Adage of "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind.

Our style did quite well against teams with all conference traditional post players in the regional, even with a true freshman big. Regardless of style, coaches would give their eye teeth to have the regional seed and occasionally regional championship that you described. We don't need to avoid #1 seed in E8, just NWMSU. Lol

Points per possession determines who wins the game. Wlu style consistently results in high ppp.
I think the current roster may address your concerns about defending taller players with Marlon, Viktor, Elijah and Aiden.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

The game has changed , too. Very few teams (even in the once Center-heavy PSAC West, are carrying 'those' type of bigs.

Slippery Rock and Gannon were kind of the end of the era when JR and KR both got fired.

Charleston has a very good 'old school' center but by and large those 6'9", 270 lb centers of the 90s and 00s are gone.

The best legitimate big in the past decade was probably Dustin Sleva and he was also one of Ship's best outside shooters.

[Columbuseer]

The game has changed , too. Very few teams (even in the once Center-heavy PSAC West, are carrying 'those' type of bigs.

Slippery Rock and Gannon were kind of the end of the era when JR and KR both got fired.

Charleston has a very good 'old school' center but by and large those 6'9", 270 lb centers of the 90s and 00s are gone.

The best legitimate big in the past decade was probably Dustin Sleva and he was also one of Ship's best outside shooters.

Some great points. Sleva - what an elite player! BTW he was playing for team D2 in the TBT. They beat a uva team and nearly beat best virginia. Made up of many former Lincoln Memorial and Queens nc players

[boatcapt]

Fyi: Occasionally was not an adjective for fans. It is an adverb that means the topic arises from time to time. Did not want u to think it was a dig on any fan.

I think we just have different opinions on the relative difficulty of learning to playing two styles effectively against the high level competition that one would encounter in the regionals. Adage of "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind.

Our style did quite well against teams with all conference traditional post players in the regional, even with a true freshman big. Regardless of style, coaches would give their eye teeth to have the regional seed and occasionally regional championship that you described. We don't need to avoid #1 seed in E8, just NWMSU. Lol

Points per possession determines who wins the game. Wlu style consistently results in high ppp.
I think the current roster may address your concerns about defending taller players with Marlon, Viktor, Elijah and Aiden.

Sorry, I just don't buy that the WLU style precludes any chance of learning/playing a secondary style. As I've said MANY times, I'm not talking about replacing our base style OR bring in a slew of 7 foot neanderthals that clock their movement up and down the court with an hourglass.

I'm a "tool box" guy. I think it is important to have a well rounded set of skills when I approach a particular job. Certainly there are "tools" that I'm better at using, but if I'm not willing to use the other tools I have in my tool box if my favorite tool doesn't work, there are going to be times when I fail. Do I spend a lot of time learning how to use these tools? Not really...but I do spend enough time to develop a basic compatancy in their use. WLU seems to have one tool in it's tool box and seems unwilling to even entertain putting another tool in the box. We have 15 hammers in our toolbox and spend 20 hours a week practicing the use of these hammers...Don't think it would adversely effect our ability to use hammers if we put a saw in the tool box and spent an hour a week figuring out how to use it.

[boatcapt]

The game has changed , too. Very few teams (even in the once Center-heavy PSAC West, are carrying 'those' type of bigs.

Slippery Rock and Gannon were kind of the end of the era when JR and KR both got fired.

Charleston has a very good 'old school' center but by and large those 6'9", 270 lb centers of the 90s and 00s are gone.

The best legitimate big in the past decade was probably Dustin Sleva and he was also one of Ship's best outside shooters.

Said by a fan of a team with four players 6'8", 220 pounds plus!!

Shocking to point out that a player like IUP's Daddy Ugbede... .700 from the field, over .700 from free throw line and hit the boards like no body's business...but didn't shoot the 3 (0 for 0 in his IUP career!) so WLU would have ZERO interest in even having him on their roster!!