OT: D1

[Ship69]

Not sure I agree with you on this one. At the P5 level, the major donors are, well, mega ego maniacs. They aren't people used to losing in anything. The allure of buying the next collegiate Tim Tebow, etc., is an awful lot to walk away from. It's why coaches are by and large so dispensable. The next great one is (could be) just a big offer away. Until, of course, he flops. And then the next great one is just another giant check away. Hell, they buy some of them out for $15m just to go away.

This weekend is a great example. The heavy brass at Alabama vs the heavy brass at Texas. Can you imagine the money flowing in to these two programs? I think we look at giving a college player a million dollars as insanity. To these tycoons it's chump change. Winning games like this one is worth every cent to these types of donors.

The top of the P5 is in a completely different stratosphere compared to the rest of the NCAA. Those 8-10 teams might as well be a professional league.

End of the day schools know what winning does. It generates boatloads of cash.

D1 is a completely different game. Pat Ryan has been prepared to donate $400 million toward a new football stadium at Northwestern (although we'll see where that goes after the hazing scandal) and has donated a total of about $800 million to the school. If any of our PSAC schools received a donation fo even a tenth of that it would change the entire direction of the institution. And he's doing it at a school that doesn't have much of a football history. Not all of the big D1 schools have a Ryan, but they probably have a dozen or more mini-Ryans to keep the coffers full. When I think of what a gift of even a few million could do for the student aid picture at Ship, it's irritating. At Penn State they're now busy bombarding my brother, who has paid thousands for season tickets there over the past couple of decades, with appeals for NIL cash.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Absolutely. Spot on.

I’m more or less using the examples seen in Last Chance U as the picture of how college sports can be the avenue for opportunities in a number of cases. I agree wholeheartedly with your position on the academic “experience” at the schools on that show. It’s not good. Terrible actually. These kids in the show learn nothing. They come out with a mostly junk degree. And they arguably never learned any skills that can be used.

I’m fine with college sports being the “out” for many people. That’s why so many great players came out of Western PA years ago. It was the way to avoid working in the mills.

And you’re right about minorities, or any race for that matter, being more successful in a chosen career path NOT related to professional athletics. I wish more used their gifts though on the playing field, and parlayed that into motivation to create a better life 30-40 years later, not just for the next 3-5. That’s the long game that not enough of these individuals can understand.

The degree is infinitely more valuable in life than an NIL deal or getting a few bucks to play a sport at 19-20.

Somewhere we got lost as a society pertaining to this stuff. I get the money is now out of control for collegiate athletics, and that’s never changing at this point; it’ll only get worse from here. But the upcoming return of NCAA football is exhibit A of this “go get yours!” culture that exists in the world and in sports in particular. EA Sports agreed to pay every player 500 bucks for their name, image, and likeness to be used in the game. Caleb Williams (who won’t be playing college football when the game is released in 2024 mind you) said that he will refuse to be included in the game. He stated 500 bucks is not a fair number for his worth, and many others. You see, Caleb Williams cares about himself and the other very few players of his ilk… Not the 3rd string offensive lineman for Rice or San Jose State, whose market value to EA Sports and the consumer likely isn’t even close to 500 bucks. But go figure, Williams is being backed by tons of fans, urging him to “stick it to the man.” We seem to care about Caleb Williams and those like him, not the others who are playing college football because they enjoy the sport and it was an opportunity to help them achieve a college degree.

I’m not sure where this all went off the rails. Nobody is making generational wealth for being included in a video game. Forget about the purity or sanctity of college sports (which has been gone forever). It still provides an opportunity for so many people to get an education who otherwise would’ve never gone to college, or may not have even had motivation to do so. That’s a GOOD thing. Somewhere along the way, that got lost in the constant pursuit of winning (for coaches) and making it to the NFL (for the players).

Well, I have two degrees. I've been in the work force for 20-some years. And, I by no means have 'generational wealth'.

I agree with Caleb Williams. The reigning Heisman winner and star QB at USC (Hollywood) is worth WAY more than $500. That offer is missing quite a few zeros. These guys aren't there for the 'betterment of college football players'. They are there to get paid. These stars can now make millions of dollars before they leave campus. Blow out a knee and they'll be lucky to make $50,000 a year.

Think about that for a minute. Williams can probably make $2m-$3m before he leaves college. If Joe Linebacker leaves college and gets a job paying $80,000 a year ... well, he has to work about 20 years before he makes what Williams can before he turns 21 years old.

This conversation has many levels. Your lineman at Rice or San Jose State are one level of this. Your star QBs and WRs - pimped out at every turn by their school - are on a completely elevated level. Imagine what Tim Tebow or Johnny Football would now be worth in college? I'd guess $5m a year. Maybe more. If they aren't fools, that is generational wealth.

There's only so many in those price points, obviously, but, if you're one of the lucky, hell yeah cash in while the iron is hot. Football players are all one fluke play from not being football players.

In the job market (and being a star college player is a job) you're worth what somebody is willing to pay you. Caleb Williams wouldn't even answer the phone for $500.

There's the 99% of college football players ... and then there's the 'one percenters'. Their value is just different.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Part of me thinks this will all flame out in a few years. The Knight Commission has recommended that FBS break away from the NCAA to an affiliate organization that hopefully convinces some G5 schools to go down to FCS football. I also think the NIL money will calm down once some big donors see its not exactly resulting in the on-field outcomes they intended. Big money NIL donor gets burned when his prize player gets arrested for something terrible. Players with big NIL payouts getting charged for failure to pay taxes. Then of course the lack of correlation between NIL money and winning.

Not sure I agree with you on this one. At the P5 level, the major donors are, well, mega ego maniacs. They aren't people used to losing in anything. The allure of buying the next collegiate Tim Tebow, etc., is an awful lot to walk away from. It's why coaches are by and large so dispensable. The next great one is (could be) just a big offer away. Until, of course, he flops. And then the next great one is just another giant check away. Hell, they buy some of them out for $15m just to go away.

This weekend is a great example. The heavy brass at Alabama vs the heavy brass at Texas. Can you imagine the money flowing in to these two programs? I think we look at giving a college player a million dollars as insanity. To these tycoons it's chump change. Winning games like this one is worth every cent to these types of donors.

The top of the P5 is in a completely different stratosphere compared to the rest of the NCAA. Those 8-10 teams might as well be a professional league.

End of the day schools know what winning does. It generates boatloads of cash.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Well, do you think the players' academic experience will be all that much better when the cameras are gone? I doubt it. What is amazing to me is that the schools and coaches were apparently fine with having cameras come in for what in many cases is a not so flattering look at their programs. As far as attending history class, that seems to be a problem for a lot of these kids, and from what I'm reading these days attendance seems to be an increasing problem at the high school level as well. It's a shame that so many schools think they have to establish an identity with a football team rather than academics, and of course that's not just confined to the juco circuit.

No, I don't think their academic experience will be better without the cameras. I don't think the school gives two craps about the students.

Academic culture today in high school is horrific. Teachers aren't allowed to do anything. Districts are terrified to let teachers discipline students. They are even more terrified to actually fail students.

There are high school players who are treated as Gods but who can but a Pepsi for $0.65, give you a dollar, and have no idea how much change they should get back. So, while the colleges are failing many of these athletes, their high schools basically set them up to fail.

As for the JUCO's letting the camera's in and painting them in a certain light ... my guess is they could care less. They aren't Harvard. The publicity they are getting from this show is likely worth millions of dollars. Look at Lackawanna. Hell, I think its purpose is to be a football developmental school. It needs the athletes to have success stories (as they do) and move up. Enter the next crop. They are getting tuition dollars somewhere.

Not saying it's right, but follow the dollars. Football drives the bus. The players, while here today, will be gone tomorrow -- with the next batch ready to move in.

Obviously there are exceptions -- Vanderbilt and Northwestern types, etc. But, there's way more intuitions that care more about winning a football game than actually making sure its students are educated. I think the dirty theme, end of the day, is keep them eligible. The how, why, ... is largely irrelevant.

[Fightingscot82]

Absolutely. Spot on.

I’m more or less using the examples seen in Last Chance U as the picture of how college sports can be the avenue for opportunities in a number of cases. I agree wholeheartedly with your position on the academic “experience” at the schools on that show. It’s not good. Terrible actually. These kids in the show learn nothing. They come out with a mostly junk degree. And they arguably never learned any skills that can be used.

I’m fine with college sports being the “out” for many people. That’s why so many great players came out of Western PA years ago. It was the way to avoid working in the mills.

And you’re right about minorities, or any race for that matter, being more successful in a chosen career path NOT related to professional athletics. I wish more used their gifts though on the playing field, and parlayed that into motivation to create a better life 30-40 years later, not just for the next 3-5. That’s the long game that not enough of these individuals can understand.

The degree is infinitely more valuable in life than an NIL deal or getting a few bucks to play a sport at 19-20.

Somewhere we got lost as a society pertaining to this stuff. I get the money is now out of control for collegiate athletics, and that’s never changing at this point; it’ll only get worse from here. But the upcoming return of NCAA football is exhibit A of this “go get yours!” culture that exists in the world and in sports in particular. EA Sports agreed to pay every player 500 bucks for their name, image, and likeness to be used in the game. Caleb Williams (who won’t be playing college football when the game is released in 2024 mind you) said that he will refuse to be included in the game. He stated 500 bucks is not a fair number for his worth, and many others. You see, Caleb Williams cares about himself and the other very few players of his ilk… Not the 3rd string offensive lineman for Rice or San Jose State, whose market value to EA Sports and the consumer likely isn’t even close to 500 bucks. But go figure, Williams is being backed by tons of fans, urging him to “stick it to the man.” We seem to care about Caleb Williams and those like him, not the others who are playing college football because they enjoy the sport and it was an opportunity to help them achieve a college degree.

I’m not sure where this all went off the rails. Nobody is making generational wealth for being included in a video game. Forget about the purity or sanctity of college sports (which has been gone forever). It still provides an opportunity for so many people to get an education who otherwise would’ve never gone to college, or may not have even had motivation to do so. That’s a GOOD thing. Somewhere along the way, that got lost in the constant pursuit of winning (for coaches) and making it to the NFL (for the players).

Part of me thinks this will all flame out in a few years. The Knight Commission has recommended that FBS break away from the NCAA to an affiliate organization that hopefully convinces some G5 schools to go down to FCS football. I also think the NIL money will calm down once some big donors see its not exactly resulting in the on-field outcomes they intended. Big money NIL donor gets burned when his prize player gets arrested for something terrible. Players with big NIL payouts getting charged for failure to pay taxes. Then of course the lack of correlation between NIL money and winning.

[Ship69]

It is, end of the day, a television program -- a reality TV show of sorts. It needs drama and some controversy.

If it was simply JUCO Joe playing football and attending history class its ratings would stink and the show would be cancelled.

Well, do you think the players' academic experience will be all that much better when the cameras are gone? I doubt it. What is amazing to me is that the schools and coaches were apparently fine with having cameras come in for what in many cases is a not so flattering look at their programs. As far as attending history class, that seems to be a problem for a lot of these kids, and from what I'm reading these days attendance seems to be an increasing problem at the high school level as well. It's a shame that so many schools think they have to establish an identity with a football team rather than academics, and of course that's not just confined to the juco circuit.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Well what college certainly shouldn't be about is the football tail wagging the academic dog. But I'm under no illusions about it. I have no problem with kids from problem backgrounds getting a shot at a degree, but the academic experience depicted at the schools in "Last Chance U." was not impressive in most cases. So in Independence you're playing a kid who has a "B" and four "Fs" well into the term, and then all of a sudden he miraculously gets those grades up at the end of the term by taking a few "quizzes." It's hard to believe these guys will come out of school with much of an education. Minority kids have a much better chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or businessman than an NFL or NBA player, but we'd rather invest in the ones who play sports.

It is, end of the day, a television program -- a reality TV show of sorts. It needs drama and some controversy.

If it was simply JUCO Joe playing football and attending history class its ratings would stink and the show would be cancelled.

[IUPNation]

Well what college certainly shouldn't be about is the football tail wagging the academic dog. But I'm under no illusions about it. I have no problem with kids from problem backgrounds getting a shot at a degree, but the academic experience depicted at the schools in "Last Chance U." was not impressive in most cases. So in Independence you're playing a kid who has a "B" and four "Fs" well into the term, and then all of a sudden he miraculously gets those grades up at the end of the term by taking a few "quizzes." It's hard to believe these guys will come out of school with much of an education. Minority kids have a much better chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or businessman than an NFL or NBA player, but we'd rather invest in the ones who play sports.

Did any of this take place in the Mon Valley?

:-)

[IUP24]

Well what college certainly shouldn't be about is the football tail wagging the academic dog. But I'm under no illusions about it. I have no problem with kids from problem backgrounds getting a shot at a degree, but the academic experience depicted at the schools in "Last Chance U." was not impressive in most cases. So in Independence you're playing a kid who has a "B" and four "Fs" well into the term, and then all of a sudden he miraculously gets those grades up at the end of the term by taking a few "quizzes." It's hard to believe these guys will come out of school with much of an education. Minority kids have a much better chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or businessman than an NFL or NBA player, but we'd rather invest in the ones who play sports.

Absolutely. Spot on.

I’m more or less using the examples seen in Last Chance U as the picture of how college sports can be the avenue for opportunities in a number of cases. I agree wholeheartedly with your position on the academic “experience” at the schools on that show. It’s not good. Terrible actually. These kids in the show learn nothing. They come out with a mostly junk degree. And they arguably never learned any skills that can be used.

I’m fine with college sports being the “out” for many people. That’s why so many great players came out of Western PA years ago. It was the way to avoid working in the mills.

And you’re right about minorities, or any race for that matter, being more successful in a chosen career path NOT related to professional athletics. I wish more used their gifts though on the playing field, and parlayed that into motivation to create a better life 30-40 years later, not just for the next 3-5. That’s the long game that not enough of these individuals can understand.

The degree is infinitely more valuable in life than an NIL deal or getting a few bucks to play a sport at 19-20.

Somewhere we got lost as a society pertaining to this stuff. I get the money is now out of control for collegiate athletics, and that’s never changing at this point; it’ll only get worse from here. But the upcoming return of NCAA football is exhibit A of this “go get yours!” culture that exists in the world and in sports in particular. EA Sports agreed to pay every player 500 bucks for their name, image, and likeness to be used in the game. Caleb Williams (who won’t be playing college football when the game is released in 2024 mind you) said that he will refuse to be included in the game. He stated 500 bucks is not a fair number for his worth, and many others. You see, Caleb Williams cares about himself and the other very few players of his ilk… Not the 3rd string offensive lineman for Rice or San Jose State, whose market value to EA Sports and the consumer likely isn’t even close to 500 bucks. But go figure, Williams is being backed by tons of fans, urging him to “stick it to the man.” We seem to care about Caleb Williams and those like him, not the others who are playing college football because they enjoy the sport and it was an opportunity to help them achieve a college degree.

I’m not sure where this all went off the rails. Nobody is making generational wealth for being included in a video game. Forget about the purity or sanctity of college sports (which has been gone forever). It still provides an opportunity for so many people to get an education who otherwise would’ve never gone to college, or may not have even had motivation to do so. That’s a GOOD thing. Somewhere along the way, that got lost in the constant pursuit of winning (for coaches) and making it to the NFL (for the players).

[Ship69]

I always enjoyed Last Chance U. I feel like the show is emblematic of what’s both good and bad about big time college athletics. On one hand, many of these individuals come from terrible homes or broken homes. Many were never pushed academically or how to handle when things don’t go right.

It shows what’s good too. Given the situations many of these young people are in growing up, many would have no opportunity to get a college education if it weren’t for sports.

That said, it shows how few actually make it. As you can clearly see in that show, there’s next to no shot for any of those players to make it. But they all think they will be getting a significant paycheck in the next 2-3 years to play football.

My overall point is that Last Chance U should be the subtle reminder to everyone what life and college is actually about. Scream and pound the table about paying college athletes. Laugh at those wanting to reign in NIL. The truth is when people do that, they are only focusing on the 1% or the Caleb Williams’ of the world. Because for every Caleb Williams, there’s 500 or more JUCO (or FBS) football players who grew up in a shack in Mississippi, who’s only opportunity at a better life is by getting an education through college football. And 99% of those guys at any level won’t play after college.

Regardless of what anyone ever says, the college degree that you can earn by playing sports is infinitely more valuable than any NIL opportunity or small stipend/salary you can get because you play college football. Last Chance U is emblematic of that.

Well what college certainly shouldn't be about is the football tail wagging the academic dog. But I'm under no illusions about it. I have no problem with kids from problem backgrounds getting a shot at a degree, but the academic experience depicted at the schools in "Last Chance U." was not impressive in most cases. So in Independence you're playing a kid who has a "B" and four "Fs" well into the term, and then all of a sudden he miraculously gets those grades up at the end of the term by taking a few "quizzes." It's hard to believe these guys will come out of school with much of an education. Minority kids have a much better chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or businessman than an NFL or NBA player, but we'd rather invest in the ones who play sports.

[IUP24]

This is the fan base that loved Woody Hayes and all his antics for years, much as Indiana basketball fans were big Bobby Knight boosters over the year. Anything is fine for a lot of these people as long as you're winning. Just finished watching the "Last Chance U." series on Netflix. The third and fourth seasons featured the bombastic and profane coach Jason Brown at the Independence, Kans., Community College. Most of the team's followers, including the college president, were fine with putting up with Brown's stuff the first season when he was going 9-2, winning the league, and scoring the school's first-ever bowl win. But they soured on his antics very quickly when the team went down the tubes the next season. What it basically amounts to is another way of saying the ends justify the means. Football fan bases can be hypocritical. What a surprise.

I always enjoyed Last Chance U. I feel like the show is emblematic of what’s both good and bad about big time college athletics. On one hand, many of these individuals come from terrible homes or broken homes. Many were never pushed academically or how to handle when things don’t go right.

It shows what’s good too. Given the situations many of these young people are in growing up, many would have no opportunity to get a college education if it weren’t for sports.

That said, it shows how few actually make it. As you can clearly see in that show, there’s next to no shot for any of those players to make it. But they all think they will be getting a significant paycheck in the next 2-3 years to play football.

My overall point is that Last Chance U should be the subtle reminder to everyone what life and college is actually about. Scream and pound the table about paying college athletes. Laugh at those wanting to reign in NIL. The truth is when people do that, they are only focusing on the 1% or the Caleb Williams’ of the world. Because for every Caleb Williams, there’s 500 or more JUCO (or FBS) football players who grew up in a shack in Mississippi, whose only opportunity at a better life is by getting an education through college football. And 99% of those guys at any level won’t play after college.

Regardless of what anyone ever says, the college degree that you can earn by playing sports is infinitely more valuable than any NIL opportunity or small stipend/salary you can get because you play college football. Last Chance U is emblematic of that.

[IUP24]

This is the fan base that loved Woody Hayes and all his antics for years, much as Indiana basketball fans were big Bobby Knight boosters over the year. Anything is fine for a lot of these people as long as you're winning. Just finished watching the "Last Chance U." series on Netflix. The third and fourth seasons featured the bombastic and profane coach Jason Brown at the Independence, Kans., Community College. Most of the team's followers, including the college president, were fine with putting up with Brown's stuff the first season when he was going 9-2, winning the league, and scoring the school's first-ever bowl win. But they soured on his antics very quickly when the team went down the tubes the next season. What it basically amounts to is another way of saying the ends justify the means. Football fan bases can be hypocritical. What a surprise.

I just find it interesting how differently people view Meyer in Gainesville compared to how they view him in Columbus. And if you’ve not spoken at length to people down there about him, you don’t have the perspective. The comparison is odd. I think the locals there knew how many people he had in his back pocket within the town/city - and I don’t think that sat well with many. He “won” but he was an outsider. And it was clear he was selling his soul to the devil to do it.

And to be clear, Meyer wasn’t exactly “squeaky clean” in Columbus either. There were stories about his players and coaching staff at OSU too.

What I have always found odd is that those in Gainesville view all of his baggage as Urban’s fault. In Columbus, the people here were always seem to find somewhere else to place to the blame.

As a fan of football, I think Ryan Day is a terrific coach. I think he’s brilliant offensively and schematically (although your or I could coach that team with similar success given the resources and talent). He’s like 49-6. And people want him fired for two losses.

As a Pitt fan, if you told me that my team would go 11-1 with the lone loss being to WVU, I would sign in blood for that lol. I think it shows the arrogance of that fanbase.

[TheBigCat2192]

This is the fan base that loved Woody Hayes and all his antics for years, much as Indiana basketball fans were big Bobby Knight boosters over the year. Anything is fine for a lot of these people as long as you're winning. Just finished watching the "Last Chance U." series on Netflix. The third and fourth seasons featured the bombastic and profane coach Jason Brown at the Independence, Kans., Community College. Most of the team's followers, including the college president, were fine with putting up with Brown's stuff the first season when he was going 9-2, winning the league, and scoring the school's first-ever bowl win. But they soured on his antics very quickly when the team went down the tubes the next season. What it basically amounts to is another way of saying the ends justify the means. Football fan bases can be hypocritical. What a surprise.

When someone says the word “Wigger” the Independence coach is the first thing that comes to my mind. It’s astonishing that someone can look like more of a jerk than the East Mississippi CC guy from seasons 1 and 2 but somehow he managed to do it. I find it wild that players are willing to put up with so much to further their delusions that they’ll be going pro some day if they can just get their grades up/get some tape/rehab their image.

[Ship69]

I live in Columbus.

People in Columbus hate Ryan Day. All because he's lost twice to Michigan. If you think it's a small and vocal minority, it's not. He's a far better human being than Urban Meyer, but all those people care about is beating Michigan. Meyer was in a great situation where his program was clearly better than Michigan during his tenure. It took Harbaugh a long, long time to get that train on the tracks. But it's on the tracks now. Meyer also spent so much effort and energy playing to the crowd and fanbase pertaining to the rivalry. He could do that because outside of probably one season, there wasn't much doubt about who was going to win that game. I like when coaches don't just hand to you canned quotes, but Meyer tried way too hard to be a fan when he would talk about Michigan.

You hear Day try to say thinks in the media and take shots across the bow at Michigan and it frankly just doesn't work for him. He's in a different situation than Meyer was. The two programs now are playing on the same field. Ryan Day would be far better off just being who he is.

This is the fan base that loved Woody Hayes and all his antics for years, much as Indiana basketball fans were big Bobby Knight boosters over the year. Anything is fine for a lot of these people as long as you're winning. Just finished watching the "Last Chance U." series on Netflix. The third and fourth seasons featured the bombastic and profane coach Jason Brown at the Independence, Kans., Community College. Most of the team's followers, including the college president, were fine with putting up with Brown's stuff the first season when he was going 9-2, winning the league, and scoring the school's first-ever bowl win. But they soured on his antics very quickly when the team went down the tubes the next season. What it basically amounts to is another way of saying the ends justify the means. Football fan bases can be hypocritical. What a surprise.

[IUP24]

I believe he's also resisted the NLI sweepstakes.

He most definitely has. That hasn't stopped Clemson though from building a massive new building that's specifically dedicated to NIL and allowing student athletes to "brand" themselves. Basically they built an entire facility that will allow athletes to get fancy/professional pictures taken that they can post to instagram, studios to record podcasts, etc.

So Dabo may not be on board. But Clemson certainly is.