PASSHE Institutions Merging

[iupgroundhog]

Do you know of any schools that have football teams at multiple campuses playing at the same NCAA level? Any examples of a school offering any sports at multiple campuses at the same NCAA level?

Seems like the PASSHE folks have tried to play fast and lose with language (merger/consolidation/shared services, etc) in an effort to obfuscate the merger of these six schools into two. One can only think that this was, in part, an effort to fool the NCAA into thinking that these six schools were remaining completely independent and not truly merging. But as the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck...no matter how often you call it a swan.

Of course, the NCAA is a private entity and can make whatever decisions they want, even if they make no sense or run counter to their rules. If I were a betting man, I'd say that the NCAA "grandfathers" the "crossover" sports for a limited number of years (four??) to allow the current scholarship players to graduate at which time the campus can either drop down to non-scholly D3 and keep all it's sports (even the "crossover" sports) OR remain at DII with only sports offered uniquely at that campus.

I think that's an insightful post describing a likely outcome. And it's very unfortunate. I am sure that athletics played virtually no part in the PASSHE/BOG decision-making. In this case, the powers that be have no appreciation for the value of the respective athletics programs to the schools, students, alumni, or communities. Athletics was not a part of the equation.

[iupgroundhog]

No. SIU has two football teams but they're FBS & FCS. I don't know if they're now considered semi-autonomous schools (giving out their own degrees like University of California campuses) because I imagine that's the threshold. Long Island had two athletic departments but they were different divisions like Fairleigh Dickinson.

The only things that are consolidating with this merger: names, council of trustees, senior administration & org chart, finances and policies. Everything else largely stays the same for now while they figure out how to make this work. That's the thing - its increasingly clear that the outcome was decided long ago and the last year has been a charade to show shared governance. There's very few case studies to follow in this industry so its going to take some time to flesh this out.

Did you mean "flesh this out" or "flush this out?"

[Fightingscot82]

I think that's an insightful post describing a likely outcome. And it's very unfortunate. I am sure that athletics played virtually no part in the PASSHE/BOG decision-making. In this case, the powers that be have no appreciation for the value of the respective athletics programs to the schools, students, alumni, or communities. Athletics was not a part of the equation.

It hasn't been clearly communicated that the plan needs athlete enrollment & tuition to work. Those who think this is plan a great move have no clue and most likely haven't read the details.

The ass clown in Guys Mills who sits on the board clearly hasn't. His only post on the matter:

[boatcapt]

I think that's an insightful post describing a likely outcome. And it's very unfortunate. I am sure that athletics played virtually no part in the PASSHE/BOG decision-making. In this case, the powers that be have no appreciation for the value of the respective athletics programs to the schools, students, alumni, or communities. Athletics was not a part of the equation.

All true. But I think the BOG was between a rock and a hard place. I would venture to guess that they had much more information about the actual situation at all the schools and made just about the only play they could that 1. Kept schools/campuses at ALL current locations and 2. Maximized the chances that ALL locations continue into the future.

I note in their public statements about athletics, the PASSHE has said they are committed to continuing athletics at all locations. On the surface, a very direct statement. But I think what is more important is what the statements have not said. No indication of the level of athletics (NCAA? DII? D3? NAIA?) or if ALL current programs will continue to be offered at all campuses. I could have missed it, but I don't recall the PASSHE saying they were committed to NCAA DII with multiple overlapping programs at all campuses.

[Fightingscot82]

All true. But I think the BOG was between a rock and a hard place. I would venture to guess that they had much more information about the actual situation at all the schools and made just about the only play they could that 1. Kept schools/campuses at ALL current locations and 2. Maximized the chances that ALL locations continue into the future.

I note in their public statements about athletics, the PASSHE has said they are committed to continuing athletics at all locations. On the surface, a very direct statement. But I think what is more important is what the statements have not said. No indication of the level of athletics (NCAA? DII? D3? NAIA?) or if ALL current programs will continue to be offered at all campuses. I could have missed it, but I don't recall the PASSHE saying they were committed to NCAA DII with multiple overlapping programs at all campuses.

You bring up a very good point about classification. I imagine some cost savings could be had by dropping sports down to D3 but that's also dictated by system-wide contracts where theoretically everyone is playing at the same level. We've got a pretty good thing going in the PSAC that all our members are relatively close to each other and we play a lot of divisional games on our side of the state so our travel costs are pretty low. PSAC membership fees are pretty low.

If anything - and this is blasphemous at four of the six campuses - we'll see wrestling bumped down to D2. Not for a lack of success but because the added cost of D1 vs D2 is viewed as unnecessary.

[iupgroundhog]

You bring up a very good point about classification. I imagine some cost savings could be had by dropping sports down to D3 but that's also dictated by system-wide contracts where theoretically everyone is playing at the same level. We've got a pretty good thing going in the PSAC that all our members are relatively close to each other and we play a lot of divisional games on our side of the state so our travel costs are pretty low. PSAC membership fees are pretty low.

If anything - and this is blasphemous at four of the six campuses - we'll see wrestling bumped down to D2. Not for a lack of success but because the added cost of D1 vs D2 is viewed as unnecessary.

I am not going to pretend to have a crystal ball regarding the four Wrestling programs in question. Nobody, absolutely nobody, knows how the athletics plays out.

However, based on support, financial support, current program success and status, I could see Clarion stay in D1 in the west while Edinboro drops down, and in the NE LHU stays D1 while Bloom drops down. For example, LHU has a lot of support, financial and fan base. Additionally, they now have a Regional Training Center. The camps are highly profitable. Clarion has made a push that Boro (since Bruce and Flynn) and Bloom have not.

In terms of the entire athletics programs in general, the west is a lot more complicated. There you have 3 entities with almost identical programs. In the NE, you basically have two schools with nearly identical programs.

I think the % of athletes/total enrollment at LH is close to 20%. Additionally, the program array that has been laid out maintains a lot of the majors at LH that are popular with athletes. I don't see how you could destroy that (well I guess you could).

Another feature of this thing is that, while the two triads have been dealt with equally thus far, that will change as the two arrangements will take on different looks.

[Fightingscot82]

I am not going to pretend to have a crystal ball regarding the four Wrestling programs in question. Nobody, absolutely nobody, knows how the athletics plays out.

However, based on support, financial support, current program success and status, I could see Clarion stay in D1 in the west while Edinboro drops down, and in the NE LHU stays D1 while Bloom drops down. For example, LHU has a lot of support, financial and fan base. Additionally, they now have a Regional Training Center. The camps are highly profitable. Clarion has made a push that Boro (since Bruce and Flynn) and Bloom have not.

In terms of the entire athletics programs in general, the west is a lot more complicated. There you have 3 entities with almost identical programs. In the NE, you basically have two schools with nearly identical programs.

I think the % of athletes/total enrollment at LH is close to 20%. Additionally, the program array that has been laid out maintains a lot of the majors at LH that are popular with athletes. I don't see how you could destroy that (well I guess you could).

Another feature of this thing is that, while the two triads have been dealt with equally thus far, that will change as the two arrangements will take on different looks.

I think that's a fair assessment. You're seeing at LHU why smaller private schools have such large athletic programs. Its also why I was shocked that Cheyney cut athletics.

[iupgroundhog]

I think that's a fair assessment. You're seeing at LHU why smaller private schools have such large athletic programs. Its also why I was shocked that Cheyney cut athletics.

How did the Cheyney with athletics work out?

[boatcapt]

I am not going to pretend to have a crystal ball regarding the four Wrestling programs in question. Nobody, absolutely nobody, knows how the athletics plays out.

However, based on support, financial support, current program success and status, I could see Clarion stay in D1 in the west while Edinboro drops down, and in the NE LHU stays D1 while Bloom drops down. For example, LHU has a lot of support, financial and fan base. Additionally, they now have a Regional Training Center. The camps are highly profitable. Clarion has made a push that Boro (since Bruce and Flynn) and Bloom have not.

In terms of the entire athletics programs in general, the west is a lot more complicated. There you have 3 entities with almost identical programs. In the NE, you basically have two schools with nearly identical programs.

I think the % of athletes/total enrollment at LH is close to 20%. Additionally, the program array that has been laid out maintains a lot of the majors at LH that are popular with athletes. I don't see how you could destroy that (well I guess you could).

Another feature of this thing is that, while the two triads have been dealt with equally thus far, that will change as the two arrangements will take on different looks.

With the caveat that the NCAA has the final decision and could say that all campuses can stay DII and ovelapping sports is fine, I could see the two "schools" blending their athletic programs. What I mean by that is each of the sub-campus being chosen to house specific teams...for example, the Cal "campus" housing football and Womens basketball, Borro campus housing Men's basketball and softball, and LHU campus housing Men's baseball and Women's volleyball (note those are just examples of were a sport would be housed). Somthing like that would allow each campus to continue to say they are DII but would avoid the sports "overlap" that the NCAA may object to.

[Fightingscot82]

How did the Cheyney with athletics work out?

Fair point. With the PASSHE setup, athlete tuition almost always outweighs operational costs. But there's also departmental personnel that aren't included like administration costs, trainers, etc. What cutting athletics did to Cheyney was not just lose some net tuition revenue but a ton of students. When you're that small, that makes a big deal. Almost all of those students probably left and took their future tuition with them.

Sometimes I wonder if Cheyney could get super strategic with which sports they sponsor to maximize ROI and make athletics work. It does bring students in and with as isolated as their campus is from typical things to do, could help keep students around.

[iupgroundhog]

Fair point. With the PASSHE setup, athlete tuition almost always outweighs operational costs. But there's also departmental personnel that aren't included like administration costs, trainers, etc. What cutting athletics did to Cheyney was not just lose some net tuition revenue but a ton of students. When you're that small, that makes a big deal. Almost all of those students probably left and took their future tuition with them.

Sometimes I wonder if Cheyney could get super strategic with which sports they sponsor to maximize ROI and make athletics work. It does bring students in and with as isolated as their campus is from typical things to do, could help keep students around.

As I understand the new Cheyney, they decided to go all academic. A totally different direction. In their business model, sports didn't really figure in. It comes back to my original point. The set up they had didn't work and they made a clean break away from it.

[boatcapt]

As I understand the new Cheyney, they decided to go all academic. A totally different direction. In their business model, sports didn't really figure in. It comes back to my original point. The set up they had didn't work and they made a clean break away from it.

Cheyney does still have an "intercollegiate" athletics program...albeit a small one. 31 student athletes compete in Men's and Women's basketball and volleyball.

[WarriorVoice]

Do you know of any schools that have football teams at multiple campuses playing at the same NCAA level? Any examples of a school offering any sports at multiple campuses at the same NCAA level?

Seems like the PASSHE folks have tried to play fast and lose with language (merger/consolidation/shared services, etc) in an effort to obfuscate the merger of these six schools into two. One can only think that this was, in part, an effort to fool the NCAA into thinking that these six schools were remaining completely independent and not truly merging. But as the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck...no matter how often you call it a swan.

Of course, the NCAA is a private entity and can make whatever decisions they want, even if they make no sense or run counter to their rules. If I were a betting man, I'd say that the NCAA "grandfathers" the "crossover" sports for a limited number of years (four??) to allow the current scholarship players to graduate at which time the campus can either drop down to non-scholly D3 and keep all it's sports (even the "crossover" sports) OR remain at DII with only sports offered uniquely at that campus.

Of all of the stupid things I've read on these message boards, the assertion that PASSHE is trying to fool the NCAA might be the topper on the cake.


??????

[Bart]

Do you know of any schools that have football teams at multiple campuses playing at the same NCAA level? Any examples of a school offering any sports at multiple campuses at the same NCAA level?

Not that it counts, but the University of Maryland, University of Maryland Baltimore County, and University of Maryland Eastern Shore all play D1 basketball. Perhaps Northeastern University at Bloomsburg...at Lock Haven....and at Mansfield can do it.

[iupgroundhog]

Not that it counts, but the University of Maryland, University of Maryland Baltimore County, and University of Maryland Eastern Shore all play D1 basketball. Perhaps Northeastern University at Bloomsburg...at Lock Haven....and at Mansfield can do it.

Well, those schools all have their own President so I don't think they are very integrated. Bloomfield Haven is different.