PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

It was a question to see if people are more concerned with the level of their athletic teams or with their success.

I get what you're saying. Sure. I'd like to see some championships. For the most part, Joe Public doesn't respect a DII championship any more than a DIII championship.

But I don't see how dropping to DIII saves money given the current setup. A lot of personnel costs are still dictated across the board by a union CBA regardless of classification. As I've pointed out countless times, PSAC West travel is pretty cheap & easy - changing to a new conference might actually increase travel costs. Much like the rest of this integration, the actual cost savings of moving down a classification may not be enough to justify the move.

[iupgroundhog]

It was a question to see if people are more concerned with the level of their athletic teams or with their success.

Yes, I understood the purpose of your question. I just don't think it is a solution to anything because 2 will still be in the same division and you will still have the same questions about the competition between the schools.

[boatcapt]

I get what you're saying. Sure. I'd like to see some championships. For the most part, Joe Public doesn't respect a DII championship any more than a DIII championship.

But I don't see how dropping to DIII saves money given the current setup. A lot of personnel costs are still dictated across the board by a union CBA regardless of classification. As I've pointed out countless times, PSAC West travel is pretty cheap & easy - changing to a new conference might actually increase travel costs. Much like the rest of this integration, the actual cost savings of moving down a classification may not be enough to justify the move.

Not knowing what the exact athletic budgets are at these six schools makes any savings difficult to assess. But in general terms, at least according to the NCAA, it costs half as much to field a D3 with football program as it does to field a DII with football program. But because there are so many unknowns, I purposely left the $ issue out of the question. Trying to determine if being able to say you are a DII partisipant trumps actual on field/court success at the D3 level. Is it more important to to fans and alumni to be a little fish in a preceived bigger pond or is it better to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond?

[Bart]

PASSHE versus Penn State

https://www.inquirer.com/news/penn-s...-20210801.html

[Bart]

"In all, student housing projects across the state owned universities added about a $1.6 billion dollars in debt"


https://triblive.com/local/regional/...-universities/

[IUPNation]

PASSHE versus Penn State

https://www.inquirer.com/news/penn-s...-20210801.html

Penn State needs to be de funded by the state and that money transferred to the state system.

[Fightingscot82]

"In all, student housing projects across the state owned universities added about a $1.6 billion dollars in debt"


https://triblive.com/local/regional/...-universities/

Every school's president was overflowing with hubris. They all took credit for the enrollment surge and convinced their councils of trustees that they could continue to grow in spite of the demographic decline. Only West Chester succeeded and Slippery Rock at least sustained most of their growth. Timing was also terrible - a lot of it was borrowed adjacent to the mortgage crisis so bond rates were crap and most were financed by the schools' foundations: they borrowed against their scholarship endowments at several times the values. The bonds also required high occupancy rates to meet repayment terms - most of the time 90% or more. That's a tough number to consistently meet but when they overbuilt it put increased stress on everything. Fast forward and fortunately the schools have been approved to take over the debt and refinance. For some schools they were able to pass that savings on to the students but at the more distressed schools they need those saving to alleviate the revenue deficit.

Hopefully the state doesn't allow anything like this to happen again - especially as some of the earlier adopters of the "auxiliary affiliate as borrower" like Cal and Clarion have their complexes approaching end life.

[Fightingscot82]

PASSHE versus Penn State

https://www.inquirer.com/news/penn-s...-20210801.html

There's some BS in that article. First, there's crazy overlap between Penn State campuses and PASSHE academic programs. Few of the Penn State campuses are specialized anymore and almost none are specialized to the local economy. With the exception of possibly Altoona, Erie, and Harrisburg none are economic drivers. Most Pennsylvanians assume these campuses are "transfer centers" when in reality few students transfer up to the main campus. System-wide its about 30% but at Altoona its closer to 60%. Proximity to State College is a major driver of their enrollment. They were the original campus to sell the "Penn State outlet store" experience.

This was a Philly article so it was SEPA focused. The author could also talk about the money Pitt and the state have poured into Pitt Bradford.

I've mentioned before that our campuses on average are larger and since they're independent are more closely tied to the local economy. PASSHE are almost all rural locations but Penn State and Pitt campuses are mostly in decaying former industrial towns.

I'd love to see the state request from Pitt and Penn State a financial breakdown for each campus. We're largely going after the same students and their campuses have experienced similar enrollment losses.

[iupgroundhog]

There's some BS in that article. First, there's crazy overlap between Penn State campuses and PASSHE academic programs. Few of the Penn State campuses are specialized anymore and almost none are specialized to the local economy. With the exception of possibly Altoona, Erie, and Harrisburg none are economic drivers. Most Pennsylvanians assume these campuses are "transfer centers" when in reality few students transfer up to the main campus. System-wide its about 30% but at Altoona its closer to 60%. Proximity to State College is a major driver of their enrollment. They were the original campus to sell the "Penn State outlet store" experience.

This was a Philly article so it was SEPA focused. The author could also talk about the money Pitt and the state have poured into Pitt Bradford.

I've mentioned before that our campuses on average are larger and since they're independent are more closely tied to the local economy. PASSHE are almost all rural locations but Penn State and Pitt campuses are mostly in decaying former industrial towns.

I'd love to see the state request from Pitt and Penn State a financial breakdown for each campus. We're largely going after the same students and their campuses have experienced similar enrollment losses.

One thing that is true in the article is that at the time when PSU created the 4 yr. Commonwealth campuses the reason they did it was that they were overflowing at the main campus. PSU was getting so many apps from qualified students and the demand was so high that it did make sense at the time. That level of demand wasn't maintained over the long haul and I would say the 4yr. branches did not work out as intended.

The main problem in PA is declining population. Now we are talking about the drop in "college age population" but in 20 years that translates into a drop in wage earners in the prime of their earnings lifecycle and more fiscal pain for the state. I really hate to say it but the future does not look good for PA, especially outside of the 5 county Phila. region and Allegheny County.

The map also does not include Penn College but I guess that is not a branch. Its status is more like the law school and medical school.

[Fightingscot82]

One thing that is true in the article is that at the time when PSU created the 4 yr. Commonwealth campuses the reason they did it was that they were overflowing at the main campus. PSU was getting so many apps from qualified students and the demand was so high that it did make sense at the time. That level of demand wasn't maintained over the long haul and I would say the 4yr. branches did not work out as intended.

The main problem in PA is declining population. Now we are talking about the drop in "college age population" but in 20 years that translates into a drop in wage earners in the prime of their earnings lifecycle and more fiscal pain for the state. I really hate to say it but the future does not look good for PA, especially outside of the 5 county Phila. region and Allegheny County.

The map also does not include Penn College but I guess that is not a branch. Its status is more like the law school and medical school.

Yes, which to me is the value proposition with investing in PASSHE in exchange for holding the line on cost to students. If there are fewer Pennsylvanians, we need college educated citizens who theoretically will make more money than the non-college educated to maximize potential tax revenue. That sounds vain and crass but its reality. We can't keep creating new taxes or increasing the ones we have. As an older state that once was swimming in cash, we have a lot of aging infrastructure and long-supported programs that only cost more and more to operate.

Penn College is kinda a 4-year version of Thaddeus Stevens. I'm somewhat familiar with Penn College - they definitely don't think of themselves as a Penn State campus.

[iupgroundhog]

Yes, which to me is the value proposition with investing in PASSHE in exchange for holding the line on cost to students. If there are fewer Pennsylvanians, we need college educated citizens who theoretically will make more money than the non-college educated to maximize potential tax revenue. That sounds vain and crass but its reality. We can't keep creating new taxes or increasing the ones we have. As an older state that once was swimming in cash, we have a lot of aging infrastructure and long-supported programs that only cost more and more to operate.

Penn College is kinda a 4-year version of Thaddeus Stevens. I'm somewhat familiar with Penn College - they definitely don't think of themselves as a Penn State campus.

I guess they share vo-tech roots but from the beginning, Penn College was a technical school for emerging industrial needs e.g. robotics. Stevens is your old fashioned traditional trade school, albeit a very good one.

These days, Penn College has grown into just about everything, including liberal arts. If you set their respective curriculums sid-by-side there is no similarity.

[boatcapt]

I guess they share vo-tech roots but from the beginning, Penn College was a technical school for emerging industrial needs e.g. robotics. Stevens is your old fashioned traditional trade school, albeit a very good one.

These days, Penn College has grown into just about everything, including liberal arts. If you set their respective curriculums sid-by-side there is no similarity.

Weren't Normal Schools effectively technical schools established primarily to teach students how to become teachers?

[Bart]

Weren't Normal Schools effectively technical schools established primarily to teach students how to become teachers?

[Fightingscot82]

Normal schools were teacher training institutes. You got a diploma not a degree. It's why our famous alumni from the normal school era also had college degrees from elsewhere. Vocational yes but not technical.

[boatcapt]

Normal schools were teacher training institutes. You got a diploma not a degree. It's why our famous alumni from the normal school era also had college degrees from elsewhere. Vocational yes but not technical.

So by and large, the current PASSHE schools started out as vocational schools and over time expanded their offerings and ultimately became universities. Beyond the timing (PASSHE schools did this in the late 1800's and Penn College is in the process now), how is what Penn College is doing by expanding its offerings into Bachelor programs any different that what the PASSHE schools did?