PASSHE Institutions Merging

[IUPbigINDIANS]

A lot of that can be filed under "why wasn't this being done already?" - and I get what they're saying but they don't have any data to suggest that any of these interventions (or even the completion time issue) are the "cost of degree attainment" issue. The primary reason students leave PASSHE is money - either they run out of ways to pay/continue or the game of finding money every semester makes them quit. Course availability should help with completion, especially when a student falls behind. Most often this is from changing a major and having to retake courses. When cost was much lower, students would take summer courses to make up lost ground but now just extend their stay.

The primary reason they aren't attending from the start is also money - the cost isn't low enough to convince them to buy in place of the state-related branches or the privates throwing around 50% off coupons.

Similarly to how the per-credit tuition model hurt the students most likely to finish on time, none of these interventions help these students much. They're already coming in with dual enrollment credits, more merit based aid, etc.

I don't buy it's all money. I think it's the poor return on said money. We're offering way too many majors that result in debt and Starbucks careers. Many of their parents have said Starbucks degrees.

I don't think many 17/18 year-olds are thinking about loans.

[Fightingscot82]

I don't buy it's all money. I think it's the poor return on said money. We're offering way too many majors that result in debt and Starbucks careers. Many of their parents have said Starbucks degrees.

I don't think many 17/18 year-olds are thinking about loans.

Our numbers aren't any worse than most. There's a lot of "horse to water" relationships with college. Our schools were behind on fundraising and career services because for the first 100+ years that didn't matter. Average debt is higher because our schools enroll far more poor kids who have to borrow more. That lower third of incomes is much more price sensitive. A 3% tuition increase can lose them forever, so they're back to Brownsville working 30 hours at Dollar General.

[complaint_hopeful]

Our numbers aren't any worse than most. There's a lot of "horse to water" relationships with college. Our schools were behind on fundraising and career services because for the first 100+ years that didn't matter. Average debt is higher because our schools enroll far more poor kids who have to borrow more. That lower third of incomes is much more price sensitive. A 3% tuition increase can lose them forever, so they're back to Brownsville working 30 hours at Dollar General.

Yep. And after thoroughly digesting this plan...my main criticisms are:

1) It doesn't lower tuition cost. It actually probably raises it. I get that they think kids can graduate quicker, etc...but that won't matter to recruits much. Cost is the main problem.

2) I think enrollment is going to tank really bad for fall. This plan projects modest increases and still doesn't break even for many years. Tank enrollment at the start and it will take way more years to break even. This Triad will be in financial peril for years and years.

3) I don't think kids will want to pay for housing and sit in a room and watch a teacher on the screen.

4) The unknowns. Name, accreditation, NCAA, etc. Big things.

That said...this will be approved. It was never about deciding whether to do this or not. It was about giving the public the chance at input that they could add to the plan...which they did.

So the Zoom commenter were overwhelmingly against this. I read through submitted comments, and it was less harsh. I'd say mainly employees are against it. Students either don't care generally, or don't know enough about it to make a decision.

[Fightingscot82]

Kids surprisingly don't mind taking online classes while living on campus, at least that was my experience at one university, and is backed by the PASSHE student survey. Its very similar to when a student thinks they're smart and takes only once a week night classes - it sounds really good at first but they end up full of regret. Most 18-22 year old students want a traditional experience with dorms, clubs, activities, etc. The ones that commute do so reluctantly due to cost/proximity. The future is adult students (entirely new or those who never finished somewhere else) and they want online. Something I thought was previously discussed was a system-wide campus delivering online bachelors degrees. The majority of the online-only market is working adults, especially those with military funding.

The NCAA discussed the integration question but a vote won't come until September. That probably buys a year especially if they vote no. The thing I can see the NCAA disliking is an ability for a player to freely "reassociate" from one campus to another - how easy is it for a disgruntled Edinboro football player to switch to the Cal team? If they're the same school, no transfer involved. Its only slightly different from a football player quitting to play basketball. I'd be interested in seeing the theoretical net tuition revenue for athletics at each campus and how that compares to total revenue. I believe at Edinboro it was a couple million a year. That's not easily replaced.

[complaint_hopeful]

Kids surprisingly don't mind taking online classes while living on campus, at least that was my experience at one university, and is backed by the PASSHE student survey. Its very similar to when a student thinks they're smart and takes only once a week night classes - it sounds really good at first but they end up full of regret. Most 18-22 year old students want a traditional experience with dorms, clubs, activities, etc. The ones that commute do so reluctantly due to cost/proximity. The future is adult students (entirely new or those who never finished somewhere else) and they want online. Something I thought was previously discussed was a system-wide campus delivering online bachelors degrees. The majority of the online-only market is working adults, especially those with military funding.

The NCAA discussed the integration question but a vote won't come until September. That probably buys a year especially if they vote no. The thing I can see the NCAA disliking is an ability for a player to freely "reassociate" from one campus to another - how easy is it for a disgruntled Edinboro football player to switch to the Cal team? If they're the same school, no transfer involved. Its only slightly different from a football player quitting to play basketball. I'd be interested in seeing the theoretical net tuition revenue for athletics at each campus and how that compares to total revenue. I believe at Edinboro it was a couple million a year. That's not easily replaced.

The West is going to have an online 'campus'. So a 4th campus in a sense.

It's kind of unclear how this will work, but there is a 1 liner about a Robust Revenue Sharing Model needing created...in that they could take online students from other schools especially if this gets pushed.

But, initially, I think enrollment will plummet at this Triad. Maybe as soon as fall. Time will tell. In a couple months we should see.

[Fightingscot82]

The West is going to have an online 'campus'. So a 4th campus in a sense.

It's kind of unclear how this will work, but there is a 1 liner about a Robust Revenue Sharing Model needing created...in that they could take online students from other schools especially if this gets pushed.

But, initially, I think enrollment will plummet at this Triad. Maybe as soon as fall. Time will tell. In a couple months we should see.

Basically sharing faculty to force a fully online degree option with local market familiarity in Southwest, Central, and Northwest PA. Maybe that's the real plan all along.

I agree - traditional student enrollment will plummet. Its a Catch 22 situation. The plan itself sucks and will cause a decline - but the drama around it makes it worse because it draws attention to the problem (and the problematic solution).

[complaint_hopeful]

State System of Higher Education final vote on merging those campuses is Wednesday

[complaint_hopeful]

Basically sharing faculty to force a fully online degree option with local market familiarity in Southwest, Central, and Northwest PA. Maybe that's the real plan all along.

I agree - traditional student enrollment will plummet. Its a Catch 22 situation. The plan itself sucks and will cause a decline - but the drama around it makes it worse because it draws attention to the problem (and the problematic solution).

I think this was the original plan. Share faculty and use Distance Ed/Remote Learning and offer programs at other campuses that those schools couldn't afford to do. Then, hope that enrollment increases because you offer that on different sites. I mean, this basically all centers around that and cost savings from that.

[complaint_hopeful]

I agree - traditional student enrollment will plummet. Its a Catch 22 situation. The plan itself sucks and will cause a decline - but the drama around it makes it worse because it draws attention to the problem (and the problematic solution).

I feel like the approval of this plan by the BOG should have been a Step 1. Then, Step 2 you have detailed design and implementation meetings and figure out all the specifics of how it works.

Some of this has to be live this winter to support new students registering. So it gets approved next week, and there's a big rush to get it going.

[complaint_hopeful]

Here are the PASSHE student survey results:

PowerPoint Presentation (passhe.edu)

These seem to indicate that students would be open to what's being pitched in the Integration...and are ok with online classes at some level.

[Fightingscot82]

I think this was the original plan. Share faculty and use Distance Ed/Remote Learning and offer programs at other campuses that those schools couldn't afford to do. Then, hope that enrollment increases because you offer that on different sites. I mean, this basically all centers around that and cost savings from that.

Looking at the big picture - once they get that up and running - they'll need to spend some decent money on marketing but they should be able to undersell a lot of the for-profit schools. Their big competition will be Arizona State and Purdue who went out and bought big online schools and have national name recognition.

[iupgroundhog]

Looking at the big picture - once they get that up and running - they'll need to spend some decent money on marketing but they should be able to undersell a lot of the for-profit schools. Their big competition will be Arizona State and Purdue who went out and bought big online schools and have national name recognition.

Yeah but ASU, Purdue, Penn State are big name schools. This won't carry a lot of prestige. So, you can market all you want. I think it will fizzle.

[boatcapt]

True...But it would be less expensive and if the NCAA says "no," it might be the only option beyond closing down intercolegiate athletics at four of that campuses.

[WarriorVoice]

As it stands, Pennsylvania has 3 different higher education systems, and that isn't sustainable. The Community College system is in trouble, and statewide consolidation might be the only solution. Then you have the State-related schools, Penn State, Pitt, Temple and Lincoln. Then there's the PASSHE. 14 schools, most if not all in the red, and what is seen as a desperate plan by some will be voted on this week.

The 3 groups should all be consolidated under one system, but is there leadership and vision to get it done?! Time will tell.

[Fightingscot82]

As it stands, Pennsylvania has 3 different higher education systems, and that isn't sustainable. The Community College system is in trouble, and statewide consolidation might be the only solution. Then you have the State-related schools, Penn State, Pitt, Temple and Lincoln. Then there's the PASSHE. 14 schools, most if not all in the red, and what is seen as a desperate plan by some will be voted on this week.

The 3 groups should all be consolidated under one system, but is there leadership and vision to get it done?! Time will tell.

The state doesn't own Penn State, Pitt, Temple, Lincoln, or any of the community colleges. It just gives them an annual allowance. They can't force anything. They can't even force them to fall under the open records law. The state can force PASSHE to do anything because they're all owned by the state. That's the end of the story.

The state owns a 15th college, Thaddeus Stevens, but they're not under the PASSHE umbrella for some reason. It's all stupid. There should be a state board that sets policy & oversight & coordination for everything state funded in higher ed. But this is Pennsylvania.