Should Jamestown be accepted into the NSIC?

[laker]

I've been a little over this thread for some time, but this did catch my eye. Which other universities do you think the NSIC could have added? This decision was a no-brainer for Jamestown and likely saved their athletic programs from wandering in the wilderness. I believe the NSIC had a real desire to get to an even number of teams to make football scheduling palatable. As Witt has mentioned elsewhere the conference is a bit of a D2 outpost so mid to late season nonconference scheduling is a no go. Here is what I posted in December 2022 and I think it was pretty accurate in regards to the options for the conferece.

Personally talked to Morningside football coaches at a practice a few years ago. They had NO interest in moving back to D2. Northwestern and Dordt are happy where they are.

Dakota State WANTS to move to D2.

St John's like being the big fish in the small pond and is mostly glad that St Thomas is gone. They won't be moving.

[debergfan]

When I first heard “Jamestown,” I immediately thought of VA. In the NSIC, I don't think many schools that rely on football or athletics to fill their enrollment, maybe Mary or CSP? Jamestown should be thanking Upper Iowa, maybe even sending them flowers because if UIU didn't leave, Jamestown wouldn’t be in the NSIC. It’ll be interesting to check their roster in August 2026 and compare it to August 2025 roster to see how many players stayed.

I also noticed only 10 football games listed. My guess the kids that haven't played all season, #65 B or #11 B, will end up playing probably a junior college or a prep school to help with retention.

[Thunder]

The fact stands that the NSIC saved them, and brought them in for nothing more than to be a body when other established athletic universities could have been approached. Maybe they did and we don't know about it, but we were not in a situation that we needed them in the slightest. Now we are stuck with them and are no better for it.

I've been a little over this thread for some time, but this did catch my eye. Which other universities do you think the NSIC could have added? This decision was a no-brainer for Jamestown and likely saved their athletic programs from wandering in the wilderness. I believe the NSIC had a real desire to get to an even number of teams to make football scheduling palatable. As Witt has mentioned elsewhere the conference is a bit of a D2 outpost so mid to late season nonconference scheduling is a no go. Here is what I posted in December 2022 and I think it was pretty accurate in regards to the options for the conferece.

In reading the conference scheduling threads (even the GLVC board has shown some life), it is becoming increasing clear that in my opinion the NSIC will need to add another institution. With that in mind what is the wish list for the NSIC ADs and fans. I don't know how realistic any of these are but here are my thoughts. I know this is a topic that has been brought up before, but in the cold miserable winter I wanted something else to talk about. None of these options are perfect, but they are the best options available. There is one other option too that I will address last.

1. Morningside (NAIA) - The best possible option is obvious. They are a former NCC member and would be competitive immediately in most every sport. However, as has been mentioned they seem quite happy in the NAIA world and likely aren't interested. Can the NSIC convince them to make a jump?

2. Northwestern (NAIA) - Basically the same. Not quite as good of a fit as Morningside, but I think they would remain competitive in the NSIC.

3. NE Kearney (D2) - I don't think Kearney would have any interest in leaving the MIAA, but I think it is a phone call you have to make if the first 2 decline.

4. Any Wisconsin D3 - Send the bat signal up to Wisconsin and see if anyone responds. Again, probably not going to happen but it doesn't hurt to ask right?

5. Jamestown (NAIA) - Maybe the most likely option. The Jimmies fit well within the NSIC footprint and have decent facilities. I think they would struggle to be competitive for the most part and would probably be on the same level as Mary and Minot.

6. St. John's (D3) - This one has been mentioned before and would require St. Benedict to join for women's sports. Again, probably not realistic but we are getting desperate at this point. Football-wise this would be a good fit, I'm not so sure with everything else.

7. Dordt (NAIA) - They are mostly competitive in the GPAC and like I said we are getting desperate.

8. Grand View (NAIA) - I believe Witt has mentioned this one before, and they seem to have built a pretty decent football program. I think they would struggle overall, and this is quite a haul for the northwestern front of the NSIC.

9. Dakota St (NAIA) - They are building facilities that would fit right in with most of the NSIC. I still think the Trojans would struggle to be competitive but we need someone.

10. Literally any other GPAC school (NAIA) - Dakota Weslyan is probably the next choice but at this point the NSIC probably takes anyone.

[Matt Witwicki]

The fact stands that the NSIC saved them, and brought them in for nothing more than to be a body when other established athletic universities could have been approached. Maybe they did and we don't know about it, but we were not in a situation that we needed them in the slightest. Now we are stuck with them and are no better for it.

Now you are changing the discussion. I was responding to their current situation in the NAIA specifically..and it wasn't a good position to be in. You can't blame UJ for coming to the D2 and the NSIC..The league obviously saw value in bringing them in to bolster the head count in a D2 world where things can change quickly and all the sudden the league you thought you had has quick defections and then you have near nothing = see the GNAC, GSC, and the scheduling challenges of the GLIAC.

I realize we are nearing 200 pages of Jamestown hand-wringing, but the season is now upon us and they will be playing games. I'm personally ready to turn the page on the "should they be in the league" discussion.

Carry on..

[SW_Mustang]

Is that not how you were talking about the Summit Schools? They can't compete with the Big Ten or SEC so they shouldn't even be D1?

No, that's what I said.

I don't want to turn on the TV and see A teams play MLB teams, UFL teams play NFL teams, or SPHL teams playing NHL teams. It waters the product down. Apparently I'm weird for thinking that way, I guess.

[SW_Mustang]

Correct, it's small for the NSIC. But the NSIC isn't necessarily representative of Division II as a whole, just like the MVFC isn't necessarily representative of FCS as a whole. Should Indiana State be pressured to drop to Division II because they can't compete with NDSU and SDSU in football? That's the equivalent of how people discuss Jamestown here.

I get that it would be great to have perfect fits across the board in all sports in order to deem someone worthy of the NSIC....but if that's the case what we're really talking about is the former NCC teams. Schools like Northern, Wayne, Bemidji, Southwest, etc. aren't consistently deep enough, big enough, rich enough or good enough to keep up with the former NCC schools. They always dominate the all-sports standings, which is what certain people use as a school's measure of if you're worthy to be in a conference.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make in relation to what I've said.

Take UJ out of the equation if it helps - because this really applies everywhere. If X school uses the football roster as an enrollment strategy, the only real payoff they'll get is freshman tuition. Once the back end of that roster drops out of football after year one, very few, if any of them stay with the university. Schools that do this aren't competitive at football nor do they increase their retention/graduation rates, which are far more valuable metrics than freshman enrollment.

Jamestown is a small town by any metric. It's not an attractive place to keep those students dropping off, especially when NDSU is 70 miles away.

You lost me with the MVFC, Indiana State, NCC, and Wayne State. I don't get what any of that has to do with UJ enrollment.

[zimmy21]

I can't agree with this.

The North Star was falling apart and a league where teams had to play each other twice and all that fun of a tiny league. It was only a matter of time before that league had to fold. UJ was also a geographic outpost in the GPAC..so they were in a bad spot in terms of having a conference home that would work long term. When UJ got the ball rolling for D2, the Frontier East wasn't a thing..and that isn't a good thing for the NStar teams anyway with the wild travels they'll have out west.

The fact stands that the NSIC saved them, and brought them in for nothing more than to be a body when other established athletic universities could have been approached. Maybe they did and we don't know about it, but we were not in a situation that we needed them in the slightest. Now we are stuck with them and are no better for it.

[zimmy21]

Should Indiana State be pressured to drop to Division II because they can't compete with NDSU and SDSU in football? That's the equivalent of how people discuss Jamestown here.

Is that not how you were talking about the Summit Schools? They can't compete with the Big Ten or SEC so they shouldn't even be D1?

[Purple Mav Man]

Correct, it's small for the NSIC. But the NSIC isn't necessarily representative of Division II as a whole, just like the MVFC isn't necessarily representative of FCS as a whole. Should Indiana State be pressured to drop to Division II because they can't compete with NDSU and SDSU in football? That's the equivalent of how people discuss Jamestown here.

I get that it would be great to have perfect fits across the board in all sports in order to deem someone worthy of the NSIC....but if that's the case what we're really talking about is the former NCC teams. Schools like Northern, Wayne, Bemidji, Southwest, etc. aren't consistently deep enough, big enough, rich enough or good enough to keep up with the former NCC schools. They always dominate the all-sports standings, which is what certain people use as a school's measure of if you're worthy to be in a conference.

The bolded in the first paragraph is a Gumby level stretch. Indiana State didn’t change divisions, affiliations and just join the MVC. So no, not equivalent.

If adding at all, it would be great. It would even be great to add another Northern, Southwest, Bemidji…but the NSIC added another Crookston. It’s not being used as a measure to determine worthiness of being in a conference. It’s a discussion point of how they can’t even compete in their current situation, so many of us find it very difficult to believe they’ll be able to compete in their new situation. And the conference musical chairs they’ve played doesn’t exactly instill confidence either. But alas, here come the Jimmies.

[debergfan]

My comment wasn't in response to anything you said - but once the back end of this 150-person roster drops off, they'll no longer be DII athletes. Then the playing field becomes even - are 19 year olds that aren't playing football anymore going to want to stay in a small town paying private school tuition? A few, maybe - but the rest probably won't.

Though - Jamestown is very much on the smaller end of the NSIC too. If we shoehorn MSUM onto Fargo, then there are five towns at or less than the ~15,000 mark. IMO - things really begin to urbanize around the ~50,000 mark, so it doesn't take a New York City or even a Minneapolis to start catching the attention of college kids.

Well said, I was surprised how high Jamestown's retention was - 64% but graduation rate is 44% https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator...200156#retgrad

Jamestown's niche in NAIA was winning and making deep postseason runs. Those days are over. Volleyball will be lucky to get region votes. Football will be the new crookston.

[Stanger86]

Though - Jamestown is very much on the smaller end of the NSIC too. If we shoehorn MSUM onto Fargo, then there are five towns at or less than the ~15,000 mark. IMO - things really begin to urbanize around the ~50,000 mark, so it doesn't take a New York City or even a Minneapolis to start catching the attention of college kids.

Correct, it's small for the NSIC. But the NSIC isn't necessarily representative of Division II as a whole, just like the MVFC isn't necessarily representative of FCS as a whole. Should Indiana State be pressured to drop to Division II because they can't compete with NDSU and SDSU in football? That's the equivalent of how people discuss Jamestown here.

I get that it would be great to have perfect fits across the board in all sports in order to deem someone worthy of the NSIC....but if that's the case what we're really talking about is the former NCC teams. Schools like Northern, Wayne, Bemidji, Southwest, etc. aren't consistently deep enough, big enough, rich enough or good enough to keep up with the former NCC schools. They always dominate the all-sports standings, which is what certain people use as a school's measure of if you're worthy to be in a conference.

[SW_Mustang]

Of course it's not a sin....all I've argued is that it really isn't all that different than the situation for small towns in South Dakota, small towns in Minnesota, small towns in Iowa, or small towns in Nebraska. Now continue that outside of the NSIC footprint, and you have similar situations at probably over half of Division II as a whole. Most Division II institutions are not in metropolises.

My comment wasn't in response to anything you said - but once the back end of this 150-person roster drops off, they'll no longer be DII athletes. Then the playing field becomes even - are 19 year olds that aren't playing football anymore going to want to stay in a small town paying private school tuition? A few, maybe - but the rest probably won't.

Though - Jamestown is very much on the smaller end of the NSIC too. If we shoehorn MSUM onto Fargo, then there are five towns at or less than the ~15,000 mark. IMO - things really begin to urbanize around the ~50,000 mark, so it doesn't take a New York City or even a Minneapolis to start catching the attention of college kids.

[Stanger86]

I know it's a sin 'round here to suggest that a small town in North Dakota isn't a hot spot for today's hip youth, but it isn't objectively - and taking away opportunities for prospective students (no matter how insignificant those opportunities are) is not a great way to attract... more students.

Of course it's not a sin....all I've argued is that it really isn't all that different than the situation for small towns in South Dakota, small towns in Minnesota, small towns in Iowa, or small towns in Nebraska. Now continue that outside of the NSIC footprint, and you have similar situations at probably over half of Division II as a whole. Most Division II institutions are not in metropolises.

[SW_Mustang]

Agree. I think many of us don’t see how the ‘every student is on a sports team’ model is sustainable.

I'm preaching to the choir here, but teams that do these kinds of things aren't ever going to be serious competitors. I mean... it's what happened at SMSU. We were already on the downward slide, but that 2021 season cut off any chance we had of being competitive for the next decade plus.

If this is a real long-term strategy for Jamestown, they're banking on the freshman tuition dollars of the 8th stringers. The "golden eggs" are the ones who fall in love with the campus enough (or are "stuck" there) and don't leave after year 1. Those kids get a gold star if they give up their roster spot as sophomores to the next sucker. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!

At least with JV - it cost less per-student to run those programs and there was no expectations of outcome. But they gladly showed those 60+ kids to the door when they joined D2.

[Matt Witwicki]

They announced they were moving to D2 BEFORE the GPAC kicked them out. They could still be NAIA if they really wanted to. If not the GPAC, in the Frontier East division with the NAIA Dakota schools. In fact, if they had stayed in the North Star (which was better for them travel-wise), maybe that conference still exists. A lot of their "misfortune" is of their own making.

I can't agree with this.

The North Star was falling apart and a league where teams had to play each other twice and all that fun of a tiny league. It was only a matter of time before that league had to fold. UJ was also a geographic outpost in the GPAC..so they were in a bad spot in terms of having a conference home that would work long term. When UJ got the ball rolling for D2, the Frontier East wasn't a thing..and that isn't a good thing for the NStar teams anyway with the wild travels they'll have out west.