PSAC WEST

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Most of all, the employees who have to work at the games. I've been told that by no less than 3 PASSHE schools about kickoff times. "Do you really think its fair to make someone give up their entire Saturday? That's what happens with a 3pm kickoff." is a direct quote from one. How do you think Penn State athletics staff feel about games where the kickoff time is changed with less than a week's notice? Again - small thinking.

They know that when they take the job.

[Fightingscot82]

I get your point, but the schedule is made for the school and the athletes, not the fans...

Most of all, the employees who have to work at the games. I've been told that by no less than 3 PASSHE schools about kickoff times. "Do you really think its fair to make someone give up their entire Saturday? That's what happens with a 3pm kickoff." is a direct quote from one. How do you think Penn State athletics staff feel about games where the kickoff time is changed with less than a week's notice? Again - small thinking.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I get your point, but the schedule is made for the school and the athletes, not the fans...

That's mistake No. 1 most schools are making. Without fans there is no money. No excitement. No buzz. No home-court advantage.

You really think players like playing in front of 'packed houses' of 125 people at 3 p.m. who are all about 75 years old and want to make the early bird at the senior center by 4:30 p.m.? We all see these 3 p.m. games. Atmosphere-wise they are like watching two dudes play chess in the park. Several coaches have told me over the years they'd basically rather have gum in their hair than play a 3 p.m. game at Lock Haven.

The host school sets the time. It's their choice, obviously, but the 3 p.m. time slot isn't working at all for the gate/revenue at just about every school. The 1 p.m. women's games are even worse. I've turned on games and counted 12 people in the whole gym.

Is what it is. IUP is the only school that will only play night games. Gannon and Shippensburg play several Saturday night games a year. Mercyhurst sold out its night game against Gannon two weeks ago. The only fact that remains is about this time every year I post these same God-awful attendance numbers. If schools don't want to change that's their right.

Fact: 16 of the 18 teams in the league are drawing less than 478 a game. That's horrendous. No other way to spin it. Even worse: 8 of 18 are getting less than 284 per game. That's just pathetic. Friday night high school games dramatically out-draw just about every team in this league. The numbers in the PSAC stink. That's the true bottom line. Awful.

Don't get me wrong. When the team I cheer for goes on the road and plays in an empty gym ... it only helps the visiting team. I think an earlier poster nailed when he said most schools just don't care. It shows.

[WarriorVoice]

I get the logic but the gate really takes a hit. The attendance numbers in the PSAC this year (as usual) are horrendous. Night games draw better. At some places, significantly better.

Of course, some of our schools could play at 2 a.m., 3 p.m. or 7:30 p.m. and it wouldn't make a difference. Generally, 3 p.m. starts on Saturday are just competing against far too many other activities. The numbers speak for themselves. More behinds in the seats equal more concession money, etc. Far too many schools in our league treat these programs as if they are high school teams.

Men's average attendance this year ... these figures are beyond embarrassing:

IUP	1,649
Gannon	755
Shepherd	478
Mercyhurst	469
West Chester	464
Edinboro	398
SRU	395
Millersville	354
ESU	341
Kutztown	330
UPJ	284
Bloomsburg	282
California	259
Shippensburg	254
Mansfield	226
Clarion	145
Seton Hill	144
Lock Haven	130

I get your point, but the schedule is made for the school and the athletes, not the fans...

[Ship69]

A comment he types into a message board . . . ostensibly using an electronic device. ; )

[Not disagreeing with the point--just savoring the irony.]

I use electronic devices quite often, but I can get along without them just fine. I rarely look at my phone when I'm outside the house and almost never when I'm with people or eating. It amazes me how involved people can get in doing nothing these days.

[bballfan03]

I guess I'm old school and apparently part of a dying breed. Give me the 'live' game anytime. I hate watching on TV or the computer. Especially the computer. No patience.

I like watching the nuances of the game ... hearing the crowd reactions, etc. You just miss so much on the TV feed. Obviously if I lived far away it would be a different story. My kids have also grown up in the KCAC and enjoy the games.

IUP made some big changes to the game-day experience. The bar is now out in the concourse. The Hilton (about 50' away) has become a huge hangout before and after games (for the older crowd). Music is better. The games in the KCAC when it's crowded just feel like an event. The crowds have been much more engaged this year -- and more young(ish). The Cal game was as loud as I've heard the KCAC in 6 years. When they made the big comeback and then took off the place was jumping. The crowd went after Brent Pegram hard. Danny Sancomb, too. That's homecourt advantage. That's part of the reason Joe will only play night games. They have it flowing right now. This is a likable team unlike some past editions. For the first time in years they are getting a boost from the home crowd. We'll see if it lasts.

I guess I grew up in a much different PSAC. In my era Cal would pack it ... Clarion, too. Edinboro used to always get big crowds (at least any game I went to). Times change.

UPJ should be booming. They have a small city to draw from and ... it's Johnstown. Not exactly much to do in the winter up there. I do get UPJ is pretty disconnected from the local yocals.

Schools can draw but it takes some work. To get the average fan in the building it takes more than just basketball.

I love my Knights, but am perfectly content watching the game on a big screen, on a comfortable couch (rather than wooden bleachers), and not having to pay $5 to either get pissed off at the underachieving team or the poor officiating.. often both lol

What really sealed the deal though was when the plush seats were EMPTY and after a few minutes into the game a friend and I moved down to them. Some guy came running at us and told us we couldn't sit there unless we had season tickets. He then said we either go back up or hed toss us. Whoa buddy! We went back to the bleachers... the block of 3 rows of 8 seats that were empty when we tried moving... remained empty the entire game. But Bodyguard Billy sat at the bottom of the stairs the entire game making sure only season ticket holders sat there. Youd think when you only have truly about 200 showing up.. youd want to pack the plush seats to make it look more crowded. If the people aren't there by half, they're not coming. And if they do, then you move. It was just quite a joke.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I guess I'm old school and apparently part of a dying breed. Give me the 'live' game anytime. I hate watching on TV or the computer. Especially the computer. No patience.

I like watching the nuances of the game ... hearing the crowd reactions, etc. You just miss so much on the TV feed. Obviously if I lived far away it would be a different story. My kids have also grown up in the KCAC and enjoy the games.

IUP made some big changes to the game-day experience. The bar is now out in the concourse. The Hilton (about 50' away) has become a huge hangout before and after games (for the older crowd). Music is better. The games in the KCAC when it's crowded just feel like an event. The crowds have been much more engaged this year -- and more young(ish). The Cal game was as loud as I've heard the KCAC in 6 years. When they made the big comeback and then took off the place was jumping. The crowd went after Brent Pegram hard. Danny Sancomb, too. That's homecourt advantage. That's part of the reason Joe will only play night games. They have it flowing right now. This is a likable team unlike some past editions. For the first time in years they are getting a boost from the home crowd. We'll see if it lasts.

I guess I grew up in a much different PSAC. In my era Cal would pack it ... Clarion, too. Edinboro used to always get big crowds (at least any game I went to). Times change.

UPJ should be booming. They have a small city to draw from and ... it's Johnstown. Not exactly much to do in the winter up there. I do get UPJ is pretty disconnected from the local yocals.

Schools can draw but it takes some work. To get the average fan in the building it takes more than just basketball.

[IUP24]

I've always thought that Ship could be a real tough place to play. Seems like a very big gym (seating wise) with the old school feel and acoustics. I agree that it's a shame the people there have not come with what Fite has been able to put together. I imagine if that place ever got filled almost like three quarters of the way it could be a great atmosphere. But, that can also be one of those things where the people and the school just simply don't take an appetite to basketball. Similar to Slippery Rock. Ship and SRU do great for football attendance. Both seem to really, really struggle for basketball. Slippery Rock only draws when IUP comes to town.

[Scrub]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this. It's getting harder and harder to get people out of their homes (and their faces out of their electronic devices) every year.

A comment he types into a message board . . . ostensibly using an electronic device. ; )

[Not disagreeing with the point--just savoring the irony.]

[Ship69]

Sure its a great product - but people just don't attend things like they used to. Its never been more convenient to be entertained in your own home. For $13 a month, I have access to over 5,000 movies and series on Netflix. My wife could watch Friends from end to end every week and probably be entertained. And that's before all the streaming services we split with our siblings. I got rid of cable 5 years ago and watch more TV now - and I believe that is a common statistic. People who stream (college students) actually watch more TV.

I live 20 minutes from LaRoche College. I've never once attended a LaRoche College athletic event. Why would I? I guess that's why some guy living in Saegertown has never traveled 20 minutes to watch Edinboro basketball.

We're also schools with terrible alumni giving rates. Even our own alumni don't really care much. If they won't throw $25 a year toward the scholarship fund they too are not going to pay $7 to watch a basketball game.

[CALUPA69]

Can't say it was the change of venue, that would see to help, or the decline in the program, but VULCANS MBB seemed to fall off a ledge attendance wise after the change to the ANGELO DOME. Last nine seasons at HAMER, with teams averaging 20-10, attendance varied from 396('05) to 1183('07) for an average of 754. That probably felt fairly exciting in the close confines of HH. In 2011-12 moving southeast 100 yds, the AD started out OK averaging 880 to watch a 17-12 team. After that things went steadily downhill both attendance and basketball wise. First nine years at the CONVOCATION CENTER attendance ranged from 880 in '11-'12 to 252 in '17-'18 for an average of 394 watching 11-15 basketball. With five PSAC WEST games coming, at least four of which seem winnable, I would like to see the final home attendance get to 500 average which means those five games need to draw 836 each. Not impossible but certainly a big task. Time will tell.

[Fightingscot82]

No doubt it's declining across the board but we're talking about teams in our league getting 200 people (or less) at a varsity game. Little league games draw more.

To each school its own, I suppose.

It's a shame because the product is really good -- much better than most outsiders realize -- and it's inexpensive (at most places).

Sure its a great product - but people just don't attend things like they used to. Its never been more convenient to be entertained in your own home. For $13 a month, I have access to over 5,000 movies and series on Netflix. My wife could watch Friends from end to end every week and probably be entertained. And that's before all the streaming services we split with our siblings. I got rid of cable 5 years ago and watch more TV now - and I believe that is a common statistic. People who stream (college students) actually watch more TV.

I live 20 minutes from LaRoche College. I've never once attended a LaRoche College athletic event. Why would I? I guess that's why some guy living in Saegertown has never traveled 20 minutes to watch Edinboro basketball.

We're also schools with terrible alumni giving rates. Even our own alumni don't really care much. If they won't throw $25 a year toward the scholarship fund they too are not going to pay $7 to watch a basketball game.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

No doubt it's declining across the board but we're talking about teams in our league getting 200 people (or less) at a varsity game. Little league games draw more.

To each school its own, I suppose.

It's a shame because the product is really good -- much better than most outsiders realize -- and it's inexpensive (at most places).

[Fightingscot82]

SI wrote about it a little bit ago.

https://www.si.com/college/2020/01/1...e-decline-ncaa

[Ship69]

Only speaking with knowledge of Edinboro - that number is half of what it was 15 years ago. Probably more an indictment of the options folks have moreso than the programs themselves.

Attendance is declining in many sports these days. Also, I would imagine many of the students at PSAC schools pack up their bags and head for home on the weekends as they have always done.