PASSHE Institutions Merging

[IUPbigINDIANS]

We are 100% losing kids to the gym teacher academy. No doubt at all. For whatever reason that place is hot right now. No denying.

Point was we should never lose a 'state school' kid to Clarion, Cal, etc. IUP's campus and town blows them out of the water. Ever spend a weekend at one of those places? Nor do many of their students.

Now, how many are we losing to the Bum Duck Egypt PSU and Pitt branches ... probably more than we'd like to acknowledge.

[ironmaniup]

We are 100% losing kids to the gym teacher academy. No doubt at all. For whatever reason that place is hot right now. No denying.

Point was we should never lose a 'state school' kid to Clarion, Cal, etc. IUP's campus and town blows them out of the water. Ever spend a weekend at one of those places? Nor do many of their students.

Now, how many are we losing to the Bum Duck Egypt PSU and Pitt branches ... probably more than we'd like to acknowledge.

This has been discussed here alot, and on campus even more. There are alot of possibilities, but I'm convinced the biggest issue is finances. There's been alot in the news about the problem of student debt, and so more and more working class students - one of IUP's main demographic, have simply been choosing the school they can commute to, live at home, or in a cheap apartment, avoid the costly meal plans, and keep their part time job. Its sort of the Dave Ramsey strategy. The branch campuses have definitely been benefiting from this. Imagine a kid living in Jeanette, has a good part time job in Greensburg or Murraysville. They can go to UPG for a little more tuition than IUP, but avoid the housing costs, and keep their job instead of trying to find an on campus job, or something in Indiana - where there are fewer Jobs than in Greensburg area (there will be even fewer of these jobs when the new minimum wage comes in). Then they also claim a Pitt degree, which has a bit more gravitas than IUP, no need to mention the branch campus. More and more students are going this way. The College experience has just become too expensive for the working class students, so they go closer to home, or go to community colleges. There's always the hope of going to a more traditional university, away from home in two years, and some do, but alot end up not doing that.

[complaint_hopeful]

I don't think the average current student chooses a campus because of how the campus looks. I think 10 years ago that was the case...but not now.

PASSHE has some beautiful campuses...and a lot of debt that raises prices.

They choose PSU because it's a better brand...and the PASSHE school prices kept rising to the point where students just pay a little more to go there...

It's like you go to the store and see 3 items. The good item is 10. The better is 15. The best is 20. You might go with the better.

Now what if good was 10. The better was 17.50. The best was 20? You might go with good or best. But you probably won't go with better.

In this scenario...good is a Cc. Better is a passhe school. And best is a PSU or Pitt. There are definately other Tiers of college above, but I think for students considering PASSHE schools...these are the choices. Ie they aren't choosing between CMU and Clarion for instance.

The market segment we're in is a terrible higher education one to be in for competition. Probably the worst for the reason my example elaborated on. You have lower priced alternatives and the higher priced ones aren't that much more. The state funding situation created this.

[complaint_hopeful]

This has been discussed here alot, and on campus even more. There are alot of possibilities, but I'm convinced the biggest issue is finances. There's been alot in the news about the problem of student debt, and so more and more working class students - one of IUP's main demographic, have simply been choosing the school they can commute to, live at home, or in a cheap apartment, avoid the costly meal plans, and keep their part time job. Its sort of the Dave Ramsey strategy. The branch campuses have definitely been benefiting from this. Imagine a kid living in Jeanette, has a good part time job in Greensburg or Murraysville. They can go to UPG for a little more tuition than IUP, but avoid the housing costs, and keep their job instead of trying to find an on campus job, or something in Indiana - where there are fewer Jobs than in Greensburg area (there will be even fewer of these jobs when the new minimum wage comes in). Then they also claim a Pitt degree, which has a bit more gravitas than IUP, no need to mention the branch campus. More and more students are going this way. The College experience has just become too expensive for the working class students, so they go closer to home, or go to community colleges. There's always the hope of going to a more traditional university, away from home in two years, and some do, but alot end up not doing that.

Yes! Well said. That's what's happening in general.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

This has been discussed here alot, and on campus even more. There are alot of possibilities, but I'm convinced the biggest issue is finances. There's been alot in the news about the problem of student debt, and so more and more working class students - one of IUP's main demographic, have simply been choosing the school they can commute to, live at home, or in a cheap apartment, avoid the costly meal plans, and keep their part time job. Its sort of the Dave Ramsey strategy. The branch campuses have definitely been benefiting from this. Imagine a kid living in Jeanette, has a good part time job in Greensburg or Murraysville. They can go to UPG for a little more tuition than IUP, but avoid the housing costs, and keep their job instead of trying to find an on campus job, or something in Indiana - where there are fewer Jobs than in Greensburg area (there will be even fewer of these jobs when the new minimum wage comes in). Then they also claim a Pitt degree, which has a bit more gravitas than IUP, no need to mention the branch campus. More and more students are going this way. The College experience has just become too expensive for the working class students, so they go closer to home, or go to community colleges. There's always the hope of going to a more traditional university, away from home in two years, and some do, but alot end up not doing that.

Agreed. These are also the children of the diploma era ... a time when just about everybody went to college, racked up debt, then found a job completely unrelated to their major. More and more are opting straight for the workforce or to technical schools, etc. Being perfectly honest there are degrees being offered that are literally just a waste of money.

[Fightingscot82]

Its a little bit of everyone. There haven't been many gains in this part of the country for high school grads going straight to community college. In fact, in SWPA that rate has actually declined, which is absolutely stupid. I guess nobody wants to throw a big high school grad party and explain that your next step is CCAC Boyce.

Yeah Slippery Rock is the "it" school right now. Cal was it 10 years ago. I have it secondhand that their admissions experience is the best of any PASSHE school.

All the Penn State and Pitt Outlet Stores are losing enrollment - even the mighty Behrend - except for Penn State Harrisburg. That campus has exploded at the same rate as West Chester and they've invested heavily in a traditional college experience: lots of new housing, Greek Life, etc.

Where we're really getting our clocks cleaned are the low and mid tier privates. Mom and Dad Middle Class who never dreamed of their kid attending private school are enamored by the Robert Morris or Gannon offering a price within reach (with a lot of loans). PA private schools are now offering *average* applicants a price within $5k of PASSHE. The average discount rate right now is 55% off of sticker with some reaching 60% trying to convince some to renege on their deposit elsewhere. Little Kaitlyn has a great GPA and a good SAT score and IUP offered her a $1,500 scholarship. But St. Vincent offered her a discount worth $30,000 off of sticker price. Plus a lot of people assume that at a private school things are nicer, the education better, and the experience safer. To middle class parents that's hard to pass up and you can brag about how Kaitlyn got huge money thrown at her. It also appears that St. Vincent wants Kaitlyn way more than IUP. Imagine going in to buy a Honda and the salesman shows you for just a little more you can have an Acura. In reality it means nothing but there's cache. In my time at RMU, I was amazed at the kids borrowing $20k a year for a degree that was more expensive and not nearly as good as some of the state schools. For example RMU is really good at selling its business school heritage and B-school accreditation but US News actually ranks Clarion, IUP, and Slippery Rock's business programs higher. There was also a girl from Bethel Park paying $35k a year for a graphic design & photography degree from RMU who told me she "worked too hard to settle on a state school" even one like Edinboro with a world renowned art school.

[Fightingscot82]

Agreed. These are also the children of the diploma era ... a time when just about everybody went to college, racked up debt, then found a job completely unrelated to their major. More and more are opting straight for the workforce or to technical schools, etc. Being perfectly honest there are degrees being offered that are literally just a waste of money.

Numbers actually suggest otherwise. Community Colleges and tech schools are struggling just as much. My hypothesis is that its part of the anti-college/anti-elite/anti-liberal/pro-JoeSixPack messaging from the right side of the political spectrum. Boomers in charge keep raising rates to make their ideal budget work and there are just fewer kids. Very few colleges have adapted to working adults looking for professional education, the only growing demographic. Some schools like RMU & Point Park that were founded to serve that demographic have abandoned it in favor of a traditional residential experience. This is how online & for-profit exploded.

The "everyone going to college, racked up debt, then found a job completely unrelated to their major" experience is a big factor in the shift of what students now study. Gen Z doesn't choose their favorite subject in school, they choose a job that sounds appealing. So this makes traditional liberal arts degrees with their open-ended outcomes less desirable. Same with education - how many people came to PASSHE schools in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s to study education only to a) realize they hate it, or b) graduated and couldn't find jobs without moving to backwater Virginia? Throw in that generation's kids reaching college age and a cultural disrespect for teachers and you've got a 70% decline in education majors since 2010. I believe I saw it somewhere that the highest percentage of education majors in PASSHE was Lock Haven with 11%.

[ironmaniup]

Numbers actually suggest otherwise. Community Colleges and tech schools are struggling just as much. My hypothesis is that its part of the anti-college/anti-elite/anti-liberal/pro-JoeSixPack messaging from the right side of the political spectrum. Boomers in charge keep raising rates to make their ideal budget work and there are just fewer kids. Very few colleges have adapted to working adults looking for professional education, the only growing demographic. Some schools like RMU & Point Park that were founded to serve that demographic have abandoned it in favor of a traditional residential experience. This is how online & for-profit exploded.

Part of the difficulty is figuring market share changes, since the number of possible students is decreasing so much - but I'm pretty sure PASSHE has lost market share. Everybody in education is struggling except for the Pitt and PSU universities. I don't agree with the anti-elitism, most working, first gen families respect education, and understand the value, its just that all of the things added to the campus experiences in the last 10 or so years just don't have anything to do with them, so why should they bother?

[ctrabs74]

I guess the concerns about the sports programs are unwarranted..

I wouldn't say unwarranted, but it does depend on how the proposed triads play out (presuming they do at all). I was just laying out different scenarios which played out following three specific mergers (two public, one private). I would also point out that the forthcoming St. Joe's-USciences merger will likely result in the USP athletics program being eliminated.

[iupgroundhog]

I wouldn't say unwarranted, but it does depend on how the proposed triads play out (presuming they do at all). I was just laying out different scenarios which played out following three specific mergers (two public, one private). I would also point out that the forthcoming St. Joe's-USciences merger will likely result in the USP athletics program being eliminated.

It's comforting to know there are precedents. My concerns are lessened. I do think Greenstein should talk about it more because it is the key part of the "separate identity" concept that is supposed to be a part of the integrations.

As far as SJU-USP, I love that merger. What is interesting to me is the overwhelming tradition USP (PCP) has in the pharmacy world, yet they are sacrificing part of that tradition for this pragmatic union with SJU. It seems in a lot of other situations the schools and alumni don't want to let go of the tradition.

[ctrabs74]

Said forever if they can get kids here for a visit, they should land a ton of them. The campus is immaculate -- especially compared to most of the PASSHE. Big school feel in a small town -- but a fun small town.

Indiana, downtown, feels like Manhattan compared to most of its competition.

Unlike "Downtown California, Pa." which feels like Clairton or Wilkinsburg compared to the rest of the PASSHE schools.

[iupgroundhog]

Unlike "Downtown California, Pa." which feels like Clairton or Wilkinsburg compared to the rest of the PASSHE schools.

Remember how in The Deer Hunter Robert De Niro and Meryl Streep were taking online classes at Cal U?

[Fightingscot82]

The Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education is down 6.9 percent from last year.

Well that's not good, especially if certain groupings of schools have to reverse course. This number is the amount of new deposited accepted students financially committed to attending a PASSHE school in the fall.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admis...ason-isnt-over

[complaint_hopeful]

Well that's not good, especially if certain groupings of schools have to reverse course. This number is the amount of new deposited accepted students financially committed to attending a PASSHE school in the fall.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admis...ason-isnt-over

Hmm...Instead of tanking just the Integrations, maybe the entire state system will tank from all this bad press???

[boatcapt]

Part of the difficulty is figuring market share changes, since the number of possible students is decreasing so much - but I'm pretty sure PASSHE has lost market share. Everybody in education is struggling except for the Pitt and PSU universities. I don't agree with the anti-elitism, most working, first gen families respect education, and understand the value, its just that all of the things added to the campus experiences in the last 10 or so years just don't have anything to do with them, so why should they bother?

For decades the American public was preached to that the way to life success required a Bachelors degree of some sort. Blue collar workers were looked down on by the educated elite as somehow lesser no matter how successful they where. Over the last number of years, people have come to realize that there are many, many avenues to success that do not saddle 20 somthings with 40+ thousand in debt.

An example...The average Steam Fitter apprentice salary in the DMV is $67,000/yr and the average journeyman salary is $97,000. So if you are a prospective college student, you are faced with choosing between MAKING $67k for 4 years and then getting an even larger pay raise OR facing the prospect of going to college for 4 years, racking up $40k in debt and starting your career making $40k or so.