PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

Here's one reason IUP is struggling. Check out the two cheapest PASSHE schools.

[IUPNation]

It places greater emphasis on their high school transcript. Its meant to reduce the cost to applicants. High school GPA is a more reliable metric for predicting student success than SAT score. Kids from lower income communities (rural & urban) also have less access to SAT prep or retaking the exam to achieve a high score. I was a B student in high school who did well on the SAT. My wife was an A student in high school who did very poorly on the SAT. One of us went to an upper middle class suburban high school, the other a small town high school. I took the PSAT and the SAT twice. If I wanted to I could have taken SAT prep courses after school. My wife's high school didn't give the PSAT and there was just one SAT date - the morning after a playoff basketball game and she was a cheerleader.

[Fightingscot82]

Yes, that is part of it. But the SATs were re-calibrated since the last huge classes 10-15 years ago. So, it might not seems as if they lowered test score requirements, but they didn't raise them to account for the score inflation that has taken place. bottom line is that more kids are qualified to get into Pitt/PSU. Also, some programs at these schools, particularly science programs have higher standards than the basic entrance score requirement, because of the competitive admissions. once there were fewer students, lower performing students were now qualified.

Students are better prepared for the SAT than ever before. The last couple generations were brought up on standardized testing and a lot of schools within the last 20 years started incorporating SAT prep into their curriculum. When the SAT flirted with a written exam, students still did as predicted based on where they attended. Average score is up ~50 points from the 90s.

[ironmaniup]

My interpretation of schools going test-optional is that it is the same thing as accepting applicants with lower test scores.

As I understand it, the idea behind it is to maintain enrollment. If that is the case, yes, there would be a trickle-down effect.

I believe IUP is test-optional right now. I don't know if it's permanent. However, if the "new PASSHE" dives into the area of workforce development tests will be less significant.

Yes, that is part of it. But the SATs were re-calibrated since the last huge classes 10-15 years ago. So, it might not seems as if they lowered test score requirements, but they didn't raise them to account for the score inflation that has taken place. bottom line is that more kids are qualified to get into Pitt/PSU. Also, some programs at these schools, particularly science programs have higher standards than the basic entrance score requirement, because of the competitive admissions. once there were fewer students, lower performing students were now qualified.

[Fightingscot82]

My interpretation of schools going test-optional is that it is the same thing as accepting applicants with lower test scores.

As I understand it, the idea behind it is to maintain enrollment. If that is the case, yes, there would be a trickle-down effect.

I believe IUP is test-optional right now. I don't know if it's permanent. However, if the "new PASSHE" dives into the area of workforce development tests will be less significant.

It places greater emphasis on their high school transcript. Its meant to reduce the cost to applicants. High school GPA is a more reliable metric for predicting student success than SAT score. Kids from lower income communities (rural & urban) also have less access to SAT prep or retaking the exam to achieve a high score. I was a B student in high school who did well on the SAT. My wife was an A student in high school who did very poorly on the SAT. One of us went to an upper middle class suburban high school, the other a small town high school. I took the PSAT and the SAT twice. If I wanted to I could have taken SAT prep courses after school. My wife's high school didn't give the PSAT and there was just one SAT date - the morning after a playoff basketball game and she was a cheerleader.

[Fightingscot82]

So before this Chancellor, PASSHE had a study of the system...and some of the recommendations were exactly that. That PASSHE partner up with a Pitt/PSU/ or one of the other schools like that. Temple? Villanova?

That said, I don't know how the logistics work. There are Pitts and Penn States everywhere. Maybe that's the trick. Where those schools are, bring in a Temple or Villanova?

There were two studies, one commissioned by PASSHE and another by the legislature. The PASSHE study (by a higher ed agency) recommended increasing access and finding ways to lower cost. The legislature study (done by Rand) recommended that PASSHE schools be absorbed by Penn State, Pitt, Temple, and Lincoln. The problem with that second study's recommendations is that those schools aren't looking to expand their reach. It is my understanding as a career higher ed person that only half of the Pitt branches and only a handful of Penn State campuses are operating in the black. By 2025 I bet both schools close a couple outlet shops.

[iupgroundhog]

That's news to me and to a friend who is an administrator in that area of Pitt. Pitt did a new program for Pell qualifiers that brings their cost down into PASSHE territory. That hurts but could be temporary. Penn State is greatly leaning on out of state students - especially those from the Atlantic corridor who can afford to pay the nearly $50k/year cost of attendance for out of state students. I bet they'll start closing some of the underperforming "outlet store" campuses like Shenango.

Maybe you're thinking of Pitt going test-optional?

My interpretation of schools going test-optional is that it is the same thing as accepting applicants with lower test scores.

As I understand it, the idea behind it is to maintain enrollment. If that is the case, yes, there would be a trickle-down effect.

I believe IUP is test-optional right now. I don't know if it's permanent. However, if the "new PASSHE" dives into the area of workforce development tests will be less significant.

[complaint_hopeful]

It's behind a paywall, but I wish I could show you all the Gartner quadrants for colleges. It ties in with a lot of these discussions. Like there's one for prestigious schools. They can charge whatever and people will go. 4 categories. Now schools can kind of straddle 2 categories sometimes.

The PASSHE Schools are arguably in the worst one to be in. And while the demographics in PA shrink, the amount of students considering schools in that quadrant is also shrinking. It's kind of the perfect storm.

But, then when a Penn State or Pitt, who are in a different quadrant...lower their prices. It takes students from us.

[Fightingscot82]

The downside is that now Pitt and PennState are taking kids with lower SATs , that would have gone to IUP - those 1150 kids who are really hard workers are not going to IUP in droves any more. Then there is the branches that offer the R1 name. But the Science building is long over due, and will definitely help recruiting. The other problem is Science programs are expensive, and rarely make money, its more the ancillary preprofessional programs like premed, pre PT, etc that foot the bill. And IUP's total costs are too high compared to other passhe schools that have already went after easy access to health programs as a selling point.

That's news to me and to a friend who is an administrator in that area of Pitt. Pitt did a new program for Pell qualifiers that brings their cost down into PASSHE territory. That hurts but could be temporary. Penn State is greatly leaning on out of state students - especially those from the Atlantic corridor who can afford to pay the nearly $50k/year cost of attendance for out of state students. I bet they'll start closing some of the underperforming "outlet store" campuses like Shenango.

Maybe you're thinking of Pitt going test-optional?

[complaint_hopeful]

The current science building was becoming the eyesore of campus, so this is a big improvement. I assume it will come down shortly after this new building is opened.

I've heard the old Foster Dining Hall is getting ready for the wrecking ball. I'll be interested to see what they do with that space. That's a prime spot on campus.

Pitt and PSU dropping admissions standards is not a good thing for our schools. You just have to wonder if eventually Pitt and PSU take over the entire system ... Penn State-Indiana ... Pitt-Slippery Rock, etc.

So before this Chancellor, PASSHE had a study of the system...and some of the recommendations were exactly that. That PASSHE partner up with a Pitt/PSU/ or one of the other schools like that. Temple? Villanova?

That said, I don't know how the logistics work. There are Pitts and Penn States everywhere. Maybe that's the trick. Where those schools are, bring in a Temple or Villanova?

[IUPbigINDIANS]

The downside is that now Pitt and PennState are taking kids with lower SATs , that would have gone to IUP - those 1150 kids who are really hard workers are not going to IUP in droves any more. Then there is the branches that offer the R1 name. But the Science building is long over due, and will definitely help recruiting. The other problem is Science programs are expensive, and rarely make money, its more the ancillary preprofessional programs like premed, pre PT, etc that foot the bill. And IUP's total costs are too high compared to other passhe schools that have already went after easy access to health programs as a selling point.

The current science building was becoming the eyesore of campus, so this is a big improvement. I assume it will come down shortly after this new building is opened.

I've heard the old Foster Dining Hall is getting ready for the wrecking ball. I'll be interested to see what they do with that space. That's a prime spot on campus.

Pitt and PSU dropping admissions standards is not a good thing for our schools. You just have to wonder if eventually Pitt and PSU take over the entire system ... Penn State-Indiana ... Pitt-Slippery Rock, etc.

[ironmaniup]

The plan for the west is that campuses will be picked to host a major. Students at that campus will attend in person, students at others will take it online.

I don't think facilities are a way out of this mess. Otherwise we should have been doing better. IUP *has* to market its value proposition: research university experience at a state college price. It's not a tagline or slogan. If you want an R1 education but can't afford the flagships, IUP is your place. If you want that small campus charm maybe look elsewhere.

The downside is that now Pitt and PennState are taking kids with lower SATs , that would have gone to IUP - those 1150 kids who are really hard workers are not going to IUP in droves any more. Then there is the branches that offer the R1 name. But the Science building is long over due, and will definitely help recruiting. The other problem is Science programs are expensive, and rarely make money, its more the ancillary preprofessional programs like premed, pre PT, etc that foot the bill. And IUP's total costs are too high compared to other passhe schools that have already went after easy access to health programs as a selling point.

[Fightingscot82]

Considering it is still 1957 in some areas of the Commonwealth...it's not all that surprising.

I still think these mergers are a mistake. Bloomsburg is going to be dragged down because of it and I don't think it will really help Lock Haven at all.

The west schools are just too far apart. Oh yeah...you are on the Mon Valley campus but the class you want is only offered at Edinboro this semester. Have fun on your trip up 79.

I just received my IUP Magazine (I'm surprised they are still sending it out) and I believe deep down that the new Science building will pull IUP out of it's downslide. That's really going to be a crown jewel for the school to go along with the new tower they built behind the library. The IUP campus has never been in better shape...kids should be walking around pretty impressed. Now they just need the majors that kids need for employment today.

I really wish IUP could buy the hospital...and have their own medical education maybe partnered with a health system that UPMC hasn't put out of business. I mean it wouldn't be a full blown medical school but maybe it could train Physician Assistants, Nurse Practitioners and Registered Nurses for rural health needs. It seems there is a big disconnect out there for health services in rural areas and IUP could be training people who could work in those areas to give medical needs that don't require hospitalization.

The plan for the west is that campuses will be picked to host a major. Students at that campus will attend in person, students at others will take it online.

I don't think facilities are a way out of this mess. Otherwise we should have been doing better. IUP *has* to market its value proposition: research university experience at a state college price. It's not a tagline or slogan. If you want an R1 education but can't afford the flagships, IUP is your place. If you want that small campus charm maybe look elsewhere.

[IUPNation]

They're working on that and there has been progress. The wheels of change are slow though to even get certain deals in place.

Considering it is still 1957 in some areas of the Commonwealth...it's not all that surprising.

I still think these mergers are a mistake. Bloomsburg is going to be dragged down because of it and I don't think it will really help Lock Haven at all.

The west schools are just too far apart. Oh yeah...you are on the Mon Valley campus but the class you want is only offered at Edinboro this semester. Have fun on your trip up 79.

I just received my IUP Magazine (I'm surprised they are still sending it out) and I believe deep down that the new Science building that was featured in the main article will pull IUP out of it's downslide. That's really going to be a crown jewel for the school to go along with the new tower they built behind the library. The IUP campus has never been in better shape...kids should be walking around pretty impressed. Now they just need the majors that kids need for employment today.

I really wish IUP could buy the hospital...and have their own medical education maybe partnered with a health system that UPMC hasn't put out of business. I mean it wouldn't be a full blown medical school but maybe it could train Physician Assistants, Nurse Practitioners and Registered Nurses for rural health needs. It seems there is a big disconnect out there for health services in rural areas and IUP could be training people who could work in those areas to give medical needs that don't require hospitalization.

[complaint_hopeful]

To me, that should have been the first step of reform, to get all non educational operating expenses like that well under control, so that each school can benefit from bulk purchasing power by Harrisburg.

You don't need people in Sutton Hall making those deals.

They're working on that and there has been progress. The wheels of change are slow though to even get certain deals in place.