West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[Columbuseer]

The big issue is there was a D1 team in the D2 tournament this year. Three straight complete blowout wins in the E8 -- the later two down a key rotation guy. That's just sick.

If that whole team comes back next year and they add some more ... everybody else is already just playing for second next year.

You guys just ran into the one team you had no chance to beat. I think WL probably beats the other six in the E8 this year.

Totally agree. NW is unselfish too. 43% from three as a team and 1.29 ppp. Tall and athletic. You have to be shooting lights out to beat them and their defense is elite. Our 3 game losing streak kept us from any chance of avoiding them until the finals.

[boatcapt]

The big issue is there was a D1 team in the D2 tournament this year. Three straight complete blowout wins in the E8 -- the later two down a key rotation guy. That's just sick.

If that whole team comes back next year and they add some more ... everybody else is already just playing for second next year.

You guys just ran into the one team you had no chance to beat. I think WL probably beats the other six in the E8 this year.

Seems like every year there is a dominant team. Unless you are that team, I guess there is no point in trying to adapt. Just go out, play the victim and go home secure in the knowledge that you really, really tried but they were just better than you. Don't try to come up with a second option to make yourself stronger come tourney time...put all your eggs in one basket and hope that you luck out and avoid that dominant team until at least the NC game.

[Columbuseer]

Seems like every year there is a dominant team. Unless you are that team, I guess there is no point in trying to adapt. Just go out, play the victim and go home secure in the knowledge that you really, really tried but they were just better than you. Don't try to come up with a second option to make yourself stronger come tourney time...put all your eggs in one basket and hope that you luck out and avoid that dominant team until at least the NC game.

I'm a little fuzzy on this "secondary style" thing. Focusing only on NWMSU, specifically what secondary defense and offense are you proposing? Hard to assess generalities.

Given they are 66-3 over the last 3 years, many coaches would like to know if the proposed secondary style includes defenses and offenses that they have not already tried (and failed).

On occasion, WLU does revert to zone. They went to a zone with about 8 minutes left in VA State game at IUP, which was very effective and won the game for WLU IMHO. We had no choice because we could not stay in front of VA State players.

We won the game at ND college this year by going to the zone after a NDC timeout on the last NDC possession of the game, which totally disrupted their scripted play against a man-to-man.

Against NWMSU, we went to a zone briefly at the start of the second half, which NWMSU promptly eviscerated.

Had we met them in the semis or finals, they would not have had a week to prepare for the WLU stuff. I think coaches would agree that more time to prepare for a unique style is a good thing.

NWMSU and WLU share many fundamental tenets - rapid ball movement, taking only good shots, recruiting good 3 point shooter who are complete players, unselfish play, movement without the ball, offensive rebounding and great effort on defense, resulting in high points per possession.

In addition, both coaches have a great eye to identifying players that will thrive in their respective systems.

WLU adds full-court pressure to attempt to reduce opponent shooting % through fatigue and stress to lower ppp in an effort to level the playing field against superior athletic opponents. NWMSU relies on incredible discipline and effort in half-court defense and offense. Both styles work.

Given that NWMSU did not have much depth, IMHO the WLU style was the obvious choice to have the best chance at defeating them and lowering their 42% three point average. Based on the game data (below), if WLU matches their shooting percentages from three, from two and the foul line, WLU likely would have won by 3 due to the turnover advantage, even though NWMSU shot more foul shots and won the rebounding battle. However, without Will Yoakum, that was a herculean task and his absence forced more minutes on younger players.

The top six players of NWMSU are all-region level players at least. True freshman Alexander did the best defensive job on Bolon that I have seen.

In summary, I don't think the problem is the WLU style. We just need to execute it better. WLU players need to play within their skill set, for NWMSU takes zero off-balance, heavily contested, or heat check shots. Although WLU has improved since their 3 game losing streak, on occasion they are still taking ill-advised shots or turning the ball over trying to play beyond their skill set. We have to get our 3 point shooting % over 42% again.

Statistic	West Liberty Elite 8	vs Northwest Mo. St.
POINTS	77	98
FGM	29	34
FGA	65	55
FGPCT	44.6%	61.8%
3FGM	9	9
3FGA	28	20
3FGPCT	32.1%	45.0%
FTM	10	21
FTA	16	26
FTPCT	62.5%	80.8%
REBOUND OFFENSIVE	10	10
REBOUND DEFENSIVE	12	30
REBOUND TOTAL	22	40
ASSISTS	10	17
TURNOVERS	8	13
BLOCKS	2	4
STEALS	6	4
Num Possessions	70	69
Points per Possession	1.10	1.42
Assists per 100 Possessions	14.3	24.6
Assists / FG Made %	34.48%	50.00%
Assist to Turnover Ratio	1.25	1.31
Turnovers per 100 Possessions (< better)	11.4	18.8
Opponent Defensive Rebounds	30	12
Offensive Rebound Efficiency %	25.0%	45.5%
Effective FG %	51.5%	70.0%
Effective FG% Difference (team- Opp.)	-18.5%	18.5%
FGA % Diff ((team FGA-Opp.FGA)/Opp.)	18.2%	-15.4%
Forced Turnovers	13	8
Opponent Possessions	69	70
Forced Turnovers % of Opp. Possession	18.8%	11.4%

[boatcapt]

Not just NW but they certainly were an example. WLU has a style (well discussed here) and on most nights, particularly during the regular season, it wins and wins big. But there are rare occasions either because we aren't "hot" or because the other team matches up with us well, were we struggle. These struggle games are amplified in the tourney when the teams are better and are better coached. Against most teams in the regular season, we can gut it out by maximum effort and taking our style to 11. But in the tourney, maximum effort is sometimes not enough. It's for those nights when we aren't hitting OR the other team matches up well with our regular style that I think we need a practiced "secondary style." While I'm not specifically advocating for as drasric a change as a back to the basket low post offense or packed in 2-1-2 zone defense (although, wouldn't that be interesting??), I would like us to have a "plan B" style that was sufficiently different from our current style to make other teams make adjustments to address our adjustments.

As I said in a previous post, I believe there is ample in game time during the big regular season blow outs to practice this secondary style without effecting the efficiency of our current offensive and defensive styles. Heck, in some games you could go dam near the entire second half of games playing and becoming proficient in this secondary style. Yea, we may not win some of these regular season games by 40 points, but a 20 point win counts just as much.

[Columbuseer]

Not just NW but they certainly were an example. WLU has a style (well discussed here) and on most nights, particularly during the regular season, it wins and wins big. But there are rare occasions either because we aren't "hot" or because the other team matches up with us well, were we struggle. These struggle games are amplified in the tourney when the teams are better and are better coached. Against most teams in the regular season, we can gut it out by maximum effort and taking our style to 11. But in the tourney, maximum effort is sometimes not enough. It's for those nights when we aren't hitting OR the other team matches up well with our regular style that I think we need a practiced "secondary style." While I'm not specifically advocating for as drasric a change as a back to the basket low post offense or packed in 2-1-2 zone defense (although, wouldn't that be interesting??), I would like us to have a "plan B" style that was sufficiently different from our current style to make other teams make adjustments to address our adjustments.

As I said in a previous post, I believe there is ample in game time during the big regular season blow outs to practice this secondary style without effecting the efficiency of our current offensive and defensive styles. Heck, in some games you could go dam near the entire second half of games playing and becoming proficient in this secondary style. Yea, we may not win some of these regular season games by 40 points, but a 20 point win counts just as much.

Again, no one can give feedback on such general statements. What offense and defense are you proposing?

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Again, no one can give feedback on such general statements. What offense and defense are you proposing?

Based on the teams in the field, I think WL was in the very top percentage. That said, WL could have ran any offense or defense it could dream up against NWMS and it wouldn't have made a difference. They are just bigger, stronger and more talented players.

No knock on WL ... that was just a special, special team even short-handed. Nobody in my memory has ran three straight teams out of the gym in the E8.

[boatcapt]

Again, no one can give feedback on such general statements. What offense and defense are you proposing?

Ok...A Double Stack offense and a 1-2-2 half court trap. DS has plenty of motion an 3 pt options with the advantage of screens and picks. It takes full advantage of players that can handle the ball and move, somthing WLU has quite a few of. 1/2 court trap is effectively similar to what we use now but with the benefit of a second defender back to limit the easy twos that our full court trap is susceptible to.

Again...These wouldn't replace WLUs primary sets. They would give us a different practiced style to use when our opponents have figured out how to beat our Press and/or how to defend our primary offensive style.

[Columbuseer]

If you are referring to the double stack as described in the link below, it would seem to require more traditional roles rather than the positionless players that we recruit. Not saying we could not run it, but just going by the info in the link. It also states that timing is critical, which implies lots of practice time.

http://www.guidetocoachingbasketball.com/stack.htm


I like the motion offense of Gonzaga. Don't know if it has a name. Really hard to defend for aau trained players.

[boatcapt]

You asked for specific examples so I gave a couple. It really doesn't have to be either of those. What the different styles do need to be is sufficiently different to cause our opponent to change what they are doing that is beating our regular offense/press into somthing that we might be more successful against. As a secondary style, I would not expect that they spend an inordinate amount of time in practice perfecting every nuance of running it. Put it in the playbook, run the basics at the end of practice a few times, then trot it out in games when we go up by 30+ points. That would have been in 8 games last season.

On the plus side, you aren't going to get many players doing dribble/drive when they start stacked in the paint!!

[Columbuseer]

You asked for specific examples so I gave a couple. It really doesn't have to be either of those. What the different styles do need to be is sufficiently different to cause our opponent to change what they are doing that is beating our regular offense/press into somthing that we might be more successful against. As a secondary style, I would not expect that they spend an inordinate amount of time in practice perfecting every nuance of running it. Put it in the playbook, run the basics at the end of practice a few times, then trot it out in games when we go up by 30+ points. That would have been in 8 games last season.

On the plus side, you aren't going to get many players doing dribble/drive when they start stacked in the paint!!

I get concerned when we stand on the perimeter with little movement. Allows other team to rest and makes us easy to guard for an opponent with solid defensive players. Gonzaga always has several guys moving with purpose. If opponent is late on a switch, back door cut for a layup. They made USC look like a 5 star aau playgtound NBA wanna-be team. Wait, they ARE a 5 star aau playground NBA wanna-be team! :-)

Gonzaga and wlu both have positionless players and run spread type offenses. Their 6-8 guys are just ahead in their skill development compared to our bigs, which is to be expected,

[boatcapt]

I get concerned when we stand on the perimeter with little movement. Allows other team to rest and makes us easy to guard for an opponent with solid defensive players. Gonzaga always has several guys moving with purpose. If opponent is late on a switch, back door cut for a layup. They made USC look like a 5 star aau playgtound NBA wanna-be team. Wait, they ARE a 5 star aau playground NBA wanna-be team! :-)

Gonzaga and wlu both have positionless players and run spread type offenses. Their 6-8 guys are just ahead in their skill development compared to our bigs, which is to be expected,

I wouldn't be opposed to having a secondary style like that. Just somthing sufficiently different to cause the defense to have to make adjustments. Maybe they would be able to adjust and it would have little effect (I think NW would have been able to adjust to what ever we did), but maybe not.

[IUPalum]

If you are referring to the double stack as described in the link below, it would seem to require more traditional roles rather than the positionless players that we recruit. Not saying we could not run it, but just going by the info in the link. It also states that timing is critical, which implies lots of practice time.

http://www.guidetocoachingbasketball.com/stack.htm


I like the motion offense of Gonzaga. Don't know if it has a name. Really hard to defend for aau trained players.

AAU trained players??? AAU is run and gun that's it! Gotta get mine basketball!

[Columbuseer]

AAU trained players??? AAU is run and gun that's it! Gotta get mine basketball!

Good catch. Total misuse of the word "trained". Webster was turning over in his grave!
:-)

just like there were 7 words you could not say on TV, there are words you cannot say in aau:

• bad shot
• Turnover
• Share
• Selfish
• Assist
• Mistake
• Jump stop

Others?

[boatcapt]

Good catch. Total misuse of the word "trained". Webster was turning over in his grave!
:-)

just like there were 7 words you could not say on TV, there are words you cannot say in aau:

• bad shot
• Turnover
• Share
• Selfish
• Assist
• Mistake
• Jump stop

Others?

Set play
Defense
Distribute
Team win

[Columbuseer]

Set play
Defense
Distribute
Team win

Lol good ones!