West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Good point about dyer. Forgot he had graduated. Think he got some criminal justice award or scholarship late in his career at wlu. Very Talented player in some respects. Really took wlu to school at iup lol!
Transfer right is just about freedom to me. Free to mess up, be a star, whatever. Don't want to be here? Fine. We will win with or without you. I think crutch could win a title before mec or psac. European pipeline, 6m in Miami, weather, 100m endowment, facilities, d1 transfers, height etc. Plan on watching them play on net.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Two years ... all it will take until they are smashing people. They look to be very solid at the guard spot already.

But ... you're right. He now has every asset in the world.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Crutch had a history of not blocking transfers from going to any school they wished...Howelet apparently does. The difference between Dennis and Gauillozet could be a matter of when their release was signed. I recall a similar thing when an All American WR transferred from Concord and ended up at Cal PA. HC approved his release W/O restrictions, then within days the HC quit to take the OC position at Cal and within a week, the All American WR was at Cal. If that is what Crutch did with Dennis then that is about as low as you can get.

One thing I note on these coach leaves and player suddenly ends up at the new school is that it always seems to be a star player. If the departing coach really loved all "his" players, one would think he would be just as inclined to welcome the end of the bench scrub as he is to welcome the star. I'm sure Tyler Primer would love to play in Ft Lauderdale but I don't think Crutch would welcome him with open arms...and a scholly.

Athletics, unlike band, is an extra curricular activity that in and of itself does not lead to a college degree. Players are not restricted in any way from transferring to another school academically. What they are restricted from doing is participating in a particular extra curricular activity for up to one year. I'm also pretty sure that the gaining school is free to give the player a scholly if they choose to...even though the player can't compete for a year.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Two years ... all it will take until they are smashing people. They look to be very solid at the guard spot already.

But ... you're right. He now has every asset in the world.

I wouldn't bet against Crutch from a coaching standpoint, but I note NOVA is a different animal. One of the chief differences is tuition. NOVA has the same number of schollys as WLU but I note NOVA's tuition is $27K (vice WLU's $14K out of state). Player getting a 50% scholly at WLU would have to pony up $7K...Same 50% scholly at NOVA would require the player to come up with $13,500. That's a huge difference!

One of the strengths of Crutch's teams is high quality depth. It will be interesting to see if he can bring in enough quality depth given the high tuition to make his system go.

Also of note is Crutch doesn't typically recruit big ego ballers so the impact of the 8M in Miami will be somewhat muted. South FLA players are known for great individual skills and flash but not so much for team first unselfishness. Selfish players typically transfer off Cutch teams after a season or maybe two.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I think you have some good points, Boat.

I'm curious if Crutch will continue to find the hidden gems in Ohio and transport them to Ft. L.

He's a winner. No doubt. It's going to be fun to watch it develop. Nick Smith out of Pittsburgh was a nice start. He's a WL prototype.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Good points about tuition difference. Crutch type players tend to have very high hs gpas - avg gpa of team was 3.3. Could they possibly qualify for some academic help without getting in trouble with NCAA to mitigate cost issue? Team has two swedes and had russians last year. In Ohio foreign students pay double tuition at public colleges. Many but not all foreign students are rich. Regarding selfishness in FL, he signed malik who is one of top Broward county players. Success of gs warriors might contribute to a less selfish style. He got a great player from mason Ohio and d1 transfer who was leading scorer in Ashland oh history.

Regarding Dennis he was initially denied but won on appeal so I surmise crutch was therefore not involved in the release. Could be wrong though as I am not familiar with process.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Actually band, debate, etc are extracurricular activities with no restrictions. or did Ohio State make the person who dots the I sit out a year on a transfer to michigan? Lol! Rather than a coach accepting a transfer based on love, it is based on need and talent as assessed today ( not in hs). Hs offers have greater uncertainty with regards to meeting needs compared to a proven incoming junior transfer that meets needs. Players should be able to transfer without penalty but there should be hard penalties for tampering. Am surprised no one has sued for restraint of trade because one cannot get in nfl sitting on the bench at bama my Sr year when one could start at wvu for example.

[MrAugustana]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Don't know if Dennis staying at a DII was a case of his "deciding not to make the jump." People speculated about which D1 he might go to but I never heard of a D1 actually making him an offer. Possibly more a case of D1s taking a look and saying, "thanks but no thanks" and then Dennis and his advisors saying "Fu$k...What do we do NOW???!!" Tucking his tail and crawling back to WLU was more than his ego could bare but Crutch threw him a life line from NOVA which gave him a way out and a method of keeping some semblance of his dignity.

My bad. I haven't been following this thread and was under the impression (based on the couple of posts I had read) that Dennis was thinking about going D1 and then decided to stay at West Liberty. Didn't realize he had transferred out of WLU at some point recently.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Actually band, debate, etc are extracurricular activities with no restrictions. or did Ohio State make the person who dots the I sit out a year on a transfer to michigan? Lol! Rather than a coach accepting a transfer based on love, it is based on need and talent as assessed today ( not in hs). Hs offers have greater uncertainty with regards to meeting needs compared to a proven incoming junior transfer that meets needs. Players should be able to transfer without penalty but there should be hard penalties for tampering. Am surprised no one has sued for restraint of trade because one cannot get in nfl sitting on the bench at bama my Sr year when one could start at wvu for example.

If there are no restrctions on the "band coach" at Michigan going after the Suzaphone player at Ohio State that "dots the eye, why should there be in football?? Good for one...good for all...RIGHT? If "free transfer" is truly a free transfer, there should be no restrictions? In that scenario, Alabama could go after the walk-on fifth team QB for their opponent the week before the NC game and offer him a scholly to immediately transfer to Bama so he can pick his brain clean only to release him after the semester? A team that graduated a lot of seniors should be able to "rebuild" by contacting and actively recruiting star players off of other programs. Anything less could be construed as restricting the players ability to adequately assess the market for his services, right? Does this free transfer policy extend to HS? Shouldn't HS players have the right to go to which ever school they want were ever it may happen to be?

Athletic restictions are in place for a reason. While not perfect and sometimes abused, I think they make the sport(s) better and more fair than they would otherwise be. Case in point, Clemson was the NC last season...Pitt was not. Clemson is projected to again be in the hunt for a NC. But they need a punt returner to replace fumble prone Ray-Ray McCloud. Who better than Pitt All American Quadree Henderson? In the unrestricted system you envision, why wouldn't Dabo go HARD after Quadree? Makes Clemson better, gives Quadree the big stage to compete for the Heisman he believes he deserves and makes a fellow ACC team weaker.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Actually band, debate, etc are extracurricular activities with no restrictions. or did Ohio State make the person who dots the I sit out a year on a transfer to michigan? Lol! Rather than a coach accepting a transfer based on love, it is based on need and talent as assessed today ( not in hs). Hs offers have greater uncertainty with regards to meeting needs compared to a proven incoming junior transfer that meets needs. Players should be able to transfer without penalty but there should be hard penalties for tampering. Am surprised no one has sued for restraint of trade because one cannot get in nfl sitting on the bench at bama my Sr year when one could start at wvu for example.

They have:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ools/98877526/

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Good points. I would recommend very harsh financial penalties for tampering by a school to lure someone away. Fundamental philosophical question is whose rights have precedence, the individual or the program. After all football is just an extracurricular activity that is not relevant to academic achievement of the student which is the mission of higher education.
I share your concern about the rich getting richer in the Clemson example. But if that was really a primary concern of NCAA then they would restrict coaches salaries, penalize coaches who are poached by other schools and stop the insane facilities arms race. Imho the real intent of the NCAA is protecting the rich not the poor (Pitt) and the revenue stream by keeping 2nd string Clemson players from transferring to Pitt and jeopardizing their nc chances. Only 24 programs are not losing money. Everyone has freedom but the players. Try to major in medicine or engineering. You will get push back to steer u toward a more football friendly major. Football needs take precedence over academics.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Thanks for the link. I read article. Looks like this law firm has NCAA in their sites and continues to sue. In general I find it Interesting how lawyers can lose repeatedly, then find the right combination of plaintiff, judge and legal argument to win and then all heck breaks loose. Kind of like Al Davis trying to move raiders from a city.

[boatcapt]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Good points. I would recommend very harsh financial penalties for tampering by a school to lure someone away. Fundamental philosophical question is whose rights have precedence, the individual or the program. After all football is just an extracurricular activity that is not relevant to academic achievement of the student which is the mission of higher education.
I share your concern about the rich getting richer in the Clemson example. But if that was really a primary concern of NCAA then they would restrict coaches salaries, penalize coaches who are poached by other schools and stop the insane facilities arms race. Imho the real intent of the NCAA is protecting the rich not the poor (Pitt) and the revenue stream by keeping 2nd string Clemson players from transferring to Pitt and jeopardizing their nc chances. Only 24 programs are not losing money. Everyone has freedom but the players. Try to major in medicine or engineering. You will get push back to steer u toward a more football friendly major. Football needs take precedence over academics.

The players are not restricted from transferring for academics. What they are sometimes restricted from is participating in an extra curricular activity for a year at their new school. The gaining college can chose to give the transferring player a scholarship if they believe it is in their best interest to do so, even when that player is "sitting out."

Weather we want to admit it or not, big time D1's expend a huge amount of money on each of their football players. This money is intended to make the player better which in turn makes the team better. I consider this akin to what companies do with their newly hired employees in some jobs. Typical in some highly competitive job tracks and businesses in a no compete clause for people who avail themselves of the training and professional experience they gain at one company and then taking that across the street to a competitor. I see this as similar...colleges are protecting the large investment they have made in making the player better by preventing them from taking those skills "across the street" to an in-conf foe or a foe that they are scheduled to play.

I've got no love for the NCAA and they have become an organization who's primary purpose is to protect big money D1 football and basketball programs but unfortunately for them, they can't establish rules that only apply to big money programs OR exempt big money programs from rules that affect the rest of D1. I'm sure they would love to establish a rule that said players have the right to unrestricted transfer to any program...except for players at these high profile programs who's transfer can still be restricted.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

The non compete example reflects that it is a job, which i agree. By pretending it is not a job, everyone benefits but the players. I would have no problem with a minor league for football totally decoupled from the school and the pretense of serious academics. Then a lot of my concerns would go away. Pay them as employees, make them eligible for workers comp ( ha the premiums would kill football right away) and develop players who don't have grades to get into college. How many big daddy Lipscomb's are there who are losing millions today? ( Young guys hit wiki now lol ) . As a fringe benefit, they can go to college, tech school etc. of their choice after football and the league picks up the tab.

Slow time this summer. Got to talk about something lol

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Couple of comments about non-compete as I have some exposure to that.
1. Trend is that it is hard to enforce and win in court. IP theft is different issue.
2. You cannot prohibit someone from making a living. For example you cannot prohibit me from writing software if I am a developer.
3. Sometimes a distance factor is included as a constraint. Guess that is similar to not transferring in conference.