Moving Day 2025

[zimmy21]

To be fair to myself here - this isn't a doctoral thesis and no answer I can provide will be satisfactory, there will be a lot of pinholes that can be poked in it. I also acknowledge there isn't a perfect way to do this, but to answer your question with my opinion:

I think "DI" should be reserved for large state flagship institutions with large endowments, and large research private schools. The resources they're afforded tend to make them the most competitive, at least among the sports I follow.

As far as "competitive integrity" - I think most would agree with me that it would be ridiculous to allow the Duluth Harbor Monsters to compete for a Lombardi Trophy. There's zero integrity in allowing them into the NFL. Yet, we allow Mercyhurst to compete for the same trophies as Ohio State (aside from football which... yeah... argh). It's just as ridiculous, to me anyway.

It's like everyone is okay with high school and professional ranks being stratified based on whatever criteria they have, but we meet in the middle in college and suddenly we can't tell USC-Upstate to kick rocks.

You're essentially proposing the SEC and Big Ten form their own division and leave the rest of us to figure it out and fill the void. I think what you are seeing is schools aligning themselves with where they want to fall when this exact event happens.

I personally believe that if a school is thinking they'd like to move, now is that time, or risk being left even further down the proverbial ladder. D2 as is being considered 3rd tier will drop a peg or two depending on how the G5 interact with the FCS schools.

[zimmy21]

I'll respond to this in full when I get home later tonight - not ignoring you, just have to hit the road. I'll edit this post with a full response.

Though I will say, I did mention this is just a one-person thought experiment and not an actual concrete plan that I'm submitting to the NCAA, so I fully admit it's not perfect or well-defined in all aspects.

Look forward to it, I am curious what you come up with.

[sportsvine]

That's a lot of teams at all levels that qualify for your statement. The NSIC would be down to like 5 teams if they were only schools that compete for Conferences Championships in football. Lol

I just looked at NSIC conference standings going back to 2016, and only 4 teams have failed to be within 2 games of a conference/division title. I stand by my statement, maybe the parameters can be thought out more and adjusted, but strictly looking at teams that have failed to finish within 2gb of conference/division crown at least once- 4 teams have failed to do so. And for that reason, I think Minot, Concordia SP, Mary and SW MN State are classified too high and should consider moving down to D3 or NAIA.

Obviously looking at competitiveness in such a manner, all team sports are independent of one another and a university classification will likely differ from sport to sport within many universities/.

[Bballfan]

You're essentially proposing the SEC and Big Ten form their own division and leave the rest of us to figure it out and fill the void. I think what you are seeing is schools aligning themselves with where they want to fall when this exact event happens.

In football I think that is the answer. Now, you need to pull a few more teams in each conference, but each of them should play 10 conference games (I hate unbalanced conference schedules) and two out of conference and if they play an FCS school, that win doesn't count. That might put an end to some of the nonsense we saw with games this past weekend.

For all other sports, ditch these cross country trips and just go with regions for competition. West, North, South, East. Outside of basketball and a couple other sports, it is all non-revenue sports anyhow.

[zimmy21]

I just looked at NSIC conference standings going back to 2016, and only 4 teams have failed to be within 2 games of a conference/division title. I stand by my statement, maybe the parameters can be thought out more and adjusted, but strictly looking at teams that have failed to finish within 2gb of conference/division crown at least once- 4 teams have failed to do so. And for that reason, I think Minot, Concordia SP, Mary and SW MN State are classified too high and should consider moving down to D3 or NAIA.

Obviously looking at competitiveness in such a manner, all team sports are independent of one another and a university classification will likely differ from sport to sport within many universities/.

I hope you didn't put much stock into Division titles especially in this conference. They aren't worth a thing when you can have a 3 way to for division championships but only a 2 way tie for conference championships lol.. our conference is a joke in how it hands out "championships"

[SW_Mustang]

You're essentially proposing the SEC and Big Ten form their own division and leave the rest of us to figure it out and fill the void. I think what you are seeing is schools aligning themselves with where they want to fall when this exact event happens.

I personally believe that if a school is thinking they'd like to move, now is that time, or risk being left even further down the proverbial ladder. D2 as is being considered 3rd tier will drop a peg or two depending on how the G5 interact with the FCS schools.

Yeah, that's fine. Ultimately my goal is to get a better product on the field. Minnesota and Northwestern State are DI, yet the former should not have been allowed to schedule the latter. The game provided nothing for the players and nothing for the fans. It was a complete waste on both ends (I get money exchanges hands, but I'm talking about on-field product). If Minnesota was forced to schedule a P4 team (or G5 at least), that would have freed NWS to play an opponent they could have scored a TD against. Instead of one waste of a game, you'd get two watchable ones. That's what we should all want.

Then you have Adrian beating Valpo - which props to Adrian, but the PFL is awful football. Admittedly, those guys are better than I ever could be, but not even the people associated with those schools wants to watch it.

Let's flip this around - why not make every school DI? If FCS exists, why not just make more subdivisions at the DI level? If making every school DI isn't a good idea, what standards should we put in place for each division?

[SW_Mustang]

I just looked at NSIC conference standings going back to 2016, and only 4 teams have failed to be within 2 games of a conference/division title. I stand by my statement, maybe the parameters can be thought out more and adjusted, but strictly looking at teams that have failed to finish within 2gb of conference/division crown at least once- 4 teams have failed to do so. And for that reason, I think Minot, Concordia SP, Mary and SW MN State are classified too high and should consider moving down to D3 or NAIA.

Obviously looking at competitiveness in such a manner, all team sports are independent of one another and a university classification will likely differ from sport to sport within many universities/.

As much as it pains me to say, SMSU football would struggle in DIII right now. It's that bad.

[zimmy21]

Yeah, that's fine. Ultimately my goal is to get a better product on the field. Minnesota and Northwestern State are DI, yet the former should not have been allowed to schedule the latter. The game provided nothing for the players and nothing for the fans. It was a complete waste on both ends (I get money exchanges hands, but I'm talking about on-field product). If Minnesota was forced to schedule a P4 team (or G5 at least), that would have freed NWS to play an opponent they could have scored a TD against. Instead of one waste of a game, you'd get two watchable ones. That's what we should all want.

Then you have Adrian beating Valpo - which props to Adrian, but the PFL is awful football. Admittedly, those guys are better than I ever could be, but not even the people associated with those schools wants to watch it.

Let's flip this around - why not make every school DI? If FCS exists, why not just make more subdivisions at the DI level? If making every school DI isn't a good idea, what standards should we put in place for each division?

I don't disagree with you, but where do you draw the line? NDSU can't ever play up because they are FCS? Or are they only allowed to play G5 schools that do nothing for their program?

Making everyone D1 eliminates the choice schools get to make. The current state of our divisions aren't perfect I'll admit, but other than a mandatory spending budget being enforced I don't see how you can dictate what a school wants to do with it's athletic department.

Would love to see a pro/rel system in place that could be broke down by sport, but that may lead to some sports being ignored even worse by students/fans than they already are.

[SW_Mustang]

1. Explain "top" school - too broad of a term. Most Power 5 schools aren't competing for championships but they will never be asked to move down simply because they have the money...but money can not simply be the answer.

-Admittedly, I don't have a good answer to this - probably some measure of money and enrollment. But I can say that I don't think South Dakota and Missouri have much in common, and I don't think USD and USC-Upstate have much in common, yet they're all DI. I think Mizzou is fine at DI, USD would be better served at DII, and USC-Upstate would be better suited in DIII. It's a better product for the fans, which is ultimately my goal.

2. This seems fine, but it's easy for me to say

-I had a whole thing typed up here it was too ramble-y but since we decided to blend education and athletics (dang Ivy League and their nonsense), and we can't stuff that cat back into the bag - I'll concede that I don't think we should bar any college from having sports based on their competitive viability. As a consolation, we should allow them an opportunity to play for something. Obviously, we can't give everyone a trophy and some programs will still get left behind, but if we can segment the "bottom" 25%-30% of teams, then it leaves room to fix the bloat that we have with DI and build better products at DII and DIII.

3. Again, how would you rank athletic programs? Most D2/D3 schools aren't flying all over the country to have OOC games making comparing these schools challenging.

-Probably hire some guy from MIT to solve that if the NCAA ever wanted to pay me to implement this. That's my actual answer, I'm not thinking that deep on this and fully accept that there's problems with making blanket statements like that.

4. Are you saying for example a Hockey committee would determine status for teams?

-I just don't think hockey should be governed the same way football and basketball are given how few schools play and how regional the sport is. I'm not against upward mobility if the school provides something to the division they're joining. For example, if a DIII hockey program is viable for DI, I don't think they should be barred from joining DI like they are now. Colorado College and Union have proven it works in the past. I also think it puts D2 schools like SMSU in a bind because we'd love to have hockey, but we can't compete at DI (nor have the money), but we're likely barred from DIII because we're DII (Crookston did it, not sure if it's still allowed or not).

The obvious question then becomes "What is the standard to elevate a program" and there's where I just want to point out that I don't have that standard laid out as this is just opinion based.

5. Winning what? Only National Championships? Conference Championships? How many? Across all sports or does one in cross country qualify you for D1 now?

-That's hard to answer because I don't believe all wins are the same. A win in the PFL, MVFC, CUSA, and SEC aren't equal despite the fact that they are all DI. It's just my philosophy that sports exists exclusively for the purpose of winning (and player development for the professional ranks in the case of college), so pandering to these teams that can't win so their feelings don't get hurt is mind numbing to someone like me. It's like bringing Jamestown into the NSIC.

Again, I never claimed to have all the answers to a thesis level - it's just my opinion to put a better product on the field, because a lot of what we have in college now is simply unwatchable.

I support Pro/Rel but understand that it is a pipe dream. Maybe it would work better on an individual sport basis, but that would go over like a fart in the wind.

-Yeah.. it's a dream unfortunately, that way we can let a lot of this mid-major nonsense cut itself out of DI and we can build better competition downstream, but it's not logistically viable given the NCAA oversees 24 sports and has 1100 member schools in such a large geographical area.

Bolded - hopefully it makes sense, kinda had to cram it in over my break.

[SW_Mustang]

I don't disagree with you, but where do you draw the line? (1)NDSU can't ever play up because they are FCS? Or are they only allowed to play G5 schools that do nothing for their program?

Making everyone D1 eliminates the choice schools get to make. The current state of our divisions aren't perfect I'll admit, but other than a mandatory spending budget being enforced I don't see how you can dictate what a school wants to do with it's athletic department.

Would love to see a pro/rel system in place that could be broke down by sport, but that may lead to some sports being ignored even worse by students/fans than they already are.

(1) Reframe the question - if NDSU is good enough to beat FBS teams, why aren't they FBS? We all know the real world answer here, but for the sake of what's being discussed - that would solve that problem pretty quickly.

I'll acknowledge that the logic could be flipped around on me, both with Adrian beating Valpo, and with what I've said previously about winning. The central point to my idea is that schools should fall where they can be most competitive. How that gets defined is for a smarter man than me to decide.

(2) This sounds nice, but at some point you have to have some kind of regulation on who goes where. I mean, just letting any school do what they want is how we get Jamestowns and Crookstons in the NSIC.

Ultimately, DI is structured like a pyramid scheme and the model isn't feasible long term financially. Schools are jumping up for that quick payday assuming that the well will never run dry, and when it does - it's going to be a rude awakening for a lot of schools. Maybe it takes 10, 20, or 30 years - but at some point the bottom is going to fall out.

[D2Rover]

California has 11 (if I counted correctly) D1 football programs, including 7 FBS. That's actually not bad for a single state.

California also has more people than Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio combined. 11 really isn't great.

[njmav1]

California also has more people than Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio combined. 11 really isn't great.

Goodness. Are you saying states need to have D1 football programs proportional to their population?

[ccmoney8]

California also has more people than Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio combined. 11 really isn't great.

California also has weirder politics than all three of those states combined. You're going to continue to see California drop football programs. Stanford and Cal might be the next to go.

[zimmy21]

Bolded - hopefully it makes sense, kinda had to cram it in over my break.

I think where we differ is in the sense that you seem to prefer a "no fluff" mindset where only the P5 teams matter and are deemed a better product. Whereas, I come at the situation in the sense that the underdogs even in blowouts start the game with hope that they could make some noise.

I love March Madness, the best sporting event in the world in my opinion. Especially the first 2 rounds / 4 days. I'd watch it if it was all 300+ schools qualified. I enjoy the whacky matchups with actual stakes, and the potential for big schools to trip up and small schools to gain notoriety. Yes it's a small chance, but that makes them all the more entertaining when it does happen.

Your comment about schools letting themselves go wherever they want isn't entirely true, they do still need a conference invitation to move up, which out east the mobility is much higher and geography works for small schools. The constant movement lends itself as an opportunity for schools to make the jump.

[SW_Mustang]

(1) I think where we differ is in the sense that you seem to prefer a "no fluff" mindset where only the P5 teams matter and are deemed a better product. Whereas, I come at the situation in the sense that the underdogs even in blowouts start the game with hope that they could make some noise.

(2) I love March Madness, the best sporting event in the world in my opinion. Especially the first 2 rounds / 4 days. I'd watch it if it was all 300+ schools qualified. I enjoy the whacky matchups with actual stakes, and the potential for big schools to trip up and small schools to gain notoriety. Yes it's a small chance, but that makes them all the more entertaining when it does happen.

(3) Your comment about schools letting themselves go wherever they want isn't entirely true, they do still need a conference invitation to move up, which out east the mobility is much higher and geography works for small schools. The constant movement lends itself as an opportunity for schools to make the jump.

1 - The bolded isn't quite correct. What I value most is on-field product across all levels. I value almost all college athletics from Morris to Michigan. Yet - you and I would probably agree that allowing the two to play each other would be quite ridiculous. This means you and I both have a standard somewhere for what is acceptable and what isn't, mine is just a lot more strict. You and I would probably also agree that UJ isn't a good fit for the NSIC - because they won't be competitive. I just apply the same scrutiny to DI.

Being that DI is at the top of the pyramid, I do believe it should be reserved for the "best of the best" - however that gets defined. Same goes for MLB, NFL, NHL, High School - I love hockey, but not wanting AHL teams to play in the NHL doesn't mean I don't think the AHL "doesn't matter." I don't want to watch Minneota play Eden Prarie either - but I don't think Minneota shouldn't have sports just because they can't compete against Eden Prairie, nor do I believe Minneota isn't worth watching and can't have a quality exciting game. It's just not against the big time programs.

I think we got a bit robbed on Saturday - the Gophers should have been incentiviezed to schedule a better opponent, and NWS should have scheduled one they could have competed against. Instead of two quality football games, we got one that - frankly I hope nobody bothered to watch.


2 - I'm not a basketball fan at all beyond checking in on SMSU - so I'm probably not the best person to comment on this, but it seems to me like a lot of those upsets typically just get blown out in the next game or two and then the rosters transfer, effectively nullifying the chance that school has of making anouther run. It's hard for me to invest in mid major sports when the athletes themselves don't really seem to want to be there. Also kind of makes me wonder if there aren't better teams that didn't make the tournament only because they didn't get a weak conference's autobid.

As you can tell I'm not an overly emotional person when it comes to this stuff haha. It's part of the reason why I like hockey - there's not a whole lot of appealing to the weaker teams like in basketball, which makes the upsets far more interesting when they happen.

I do think a 300-team tournament would be kind of cool though - that way the better teams aren't forced to sit at home in lieu of weaker teams, and everyone has an equal chance to prove themselves

3 - Yeah, technically - but seeing some of the schools that get invites - it's not really a great barrier in my opinion. Really has nothing to do with competitive viability anymore and only about quick paydays, and we're starting to see it in the quality of what's being presented.

All that said - I'm not opposed to upward mobility, nor am I opposed to interdivisional matchups on the face of it. I just think the current system we have is broken. There isn't a single DII team nationally that would provide anything to DI, just like I don't think there's a single DIII/NAIA team in MN/ND/SD/IA that would provide anything to the NSIC. I just think there needs to be a better system for segmenting schools so we get better quality products across all divisions.