OT: D1

[Fightingscot82]

So looking at the bracket…North Allegheny defeated Pittsburgh Central Catholic on their road to the finals. So the argument that every Catholic/Private has an advantage goes down the drain.

I see excluding St Joes as just another IUP Rule type move.

However, what I do hold against Prep is that they only played 4 teams from PA during the regular season and it was their PCL Red Division opponents. I think to qualify for the PIAA playoffs you have to play a certain amount of teams in the PIAA. They were playing a lot of East coast Catholic Powers along with IMG. Either play a PIAA schedule or firm a national high school league.

Prep's challenge is that there aren't many large schools in District 10. Most of what used to be AAA schools are losing students and are now AA or AAA in the new levels. Meadville has shrunk a ton. Erie city schools condensed down to one team.

NA is huge, upper middle class, has an excellent academic reputation, and attractive. When families with decent income move to Pittsburgh, its automatically on the short list. Central Catholic eviscerated the other Catholic high schools in the region. Rich kids whose families don't care about sports send their kids to Sewickley Academy or Shadyside Academy. Ellis is for the yuppies whose girls have D1 field hockey potential. North Catholic moved out of the city to Cranberry to compete, effectively putting Vincentian Academy out of business. If your son is a good athlete and you can afford whatever they charge you for admission, Central Catholic is an attractive option. Its academic reputation is only average. If Dan Marino didn't go to Central Catholic, that program would be nothing.

[IUPNation]

As I don't know the history, how did they turn "a private school in the ghetto" in to a national football power?

Obviously they are winning big now and have become a P5 hotbed, which recruits kids in itself. But, how did this all get started?

I say that because it’s not some prep school with the state of the art campus in a rich area. It’s at 17th and Girard in North Philly. It’s seeing some gentrification around the school but it’s still not the best part of town. It’s certainly not up in Chestnut Hill.

They don’t really have a home stadium and played a majority of their regular season as the road team. The only home PCL game they had was played at Franklin Field vs LASalle which is the other non diocese owned school in the PCL. They rolled their PCL competition by an average score of 47-7. Playing 5 games vs non PA teams is a problem. That alone could prompt the PiAA from giving them a playoff bid.

How did it get started? Rich alumni I’m sure, because as I said before when I was in high school they were only good in basketball like my school.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

What difference does it make where the students come from? It’s a private school in the ghetto. How amazing that they can get anyone at all. North Allegheny has a big leafy campus. So they have advantages too. St. Joes was a nothing burger for a long time in Foosball in the PCL.

I just don’t like excluding schools because they are going the extra mile because it’s reeks of the IUP Rule.

However I would support the PIAA not including St Joes in a bracket for not playing a required amount of games against PIAA member schools. Four games just isn’t sufficient and that alone should disqualify them from a state title bid.

As I don't know the history, how did they turn "a private school in the ghetto" in to a national football power?

Obviously they are winning big now and have become a P5 hotbed, which recruits kids in itself. But, how did this all get started?

[IUPbigINDIANS]

The problem is that your comparison isn't even necessarily applicable. What Central Catholic does in the Pittsburgh area is pretty different than St. Joe's Prep in Philly. A couple years ago, St. Joe's had kids from 11 states on a team that won a state championship. Central Catholic has kids coming from school districts around Pittsburgh.

Overall, I don't believe that private schools should be competing against public schools athletically, but I think we can agree that how some of these schools operate varies. Not defending Central Catholic, but you can't compare St. Joe's (a prep school recruiting nationally) to Central Catholic (a school that may or may not be poaching kids from in and around Pittsburgh).

And to your earlier points, some smaller private schools stink in athletics. In Western PA, you've got other schools like Greensburg Central Catholic and Serra Catholic who aren't athletic powerhouses. They have some sports where they are strong some years, but rarely ever football. Serra is really good at baseball. GCC had a period where they were a very strong basketball school. But you rarely see as large of an uproar about those two compared to Central Catholic. Probably because they don't win in football. But probably also because the districts they may be pulling from are not necessarily all "small schools," so the impact of losing a student athlete isn't as significant.

GCC is also a tiny school -- playing against other tiny schools. Trust me, down in their little world, there is plenty of yapping about GCC and recruiting. To your point, because they are down in A or AA, they don't get nearly the hoopla. Indiana High just lost its star girls basketball player to GCC.

GCC also tends to recruit kids from similar small schools. PCC lands kids from the big schools, which generally comes with more social media fuss.

As to your point about PCC recruiting locally and St. Joe's recruiting nationally ... well, you can't be kind of pregnant. Recruiting is recruiting. I'd make the analogy that St. Joe's is recruiting on an SEC level. PCC is more on a MAC level. Nonetheless, they are both recruiting.

I'm a little closer to this situation as my alma mater has been hammered with star player defections to both GCC and PCC. It just crushes the 'do it right' programs who play the hand they are dealt.

Within the WPIAL, North Catholic is going to be the next power. The seeds are already planted.

[IUPNation]

The problem is that your comparison isn't even necessarily applicable. What Central Catholic does in the Pittsburgh area is pretty different than St. Joe's Prep in Philly. A couple years ago, St. Joe's had kids from 11 states on a team that won a state championship. Central Catholic has kids coming from school districts around Pittsburgh.

Overall, I don't believe that private schools should be competing against public schools athletically, but I think we can agree that how some of these schools operate varies. Not defending Central Catholic, but you can't compare St. Joe's (a prep school recruiting nationally) to Central Catholic (a school that may or may not be poaching kids from in and around Pittsburgh).

And to your earlier points, some smaller private schools stink in athletics. In Western PA, you've got other schools like Greensburg Central Catholic and Serra Catholic who aren't athletic powerhouses. They have some sports where they are strong some years, but rarely ever football. Serra is really good at baseball. GCC had a period where they were a very strong basketball school. But you rarely see as large of an uproar about those two compared to Central Catholic. Probably because they don't win in football. But probably also because the districts they may be pulling from are not necessarily all "small schools," so the impact of losing a student athlete isn't as significant.

What difference does it make where the students come from? It’s a private school in the ghetto. How amazing that they can get anyone at all. North Allegheny has a big leafy campus. So they have advantages too. St. Joes was a nothing burger for a long time in Foosball in the PCL.

I just don’t like excluding schools because they are going the extra mile because it’s reeks of the IUP Rule.

However I would support the PIAA not including St Joes in a bracket for not playing a required amount of games against PIAA member schools. Four games just isn’t sufficient and that alone should disqualify them from a state title bid.

[IUP24]

So looking at the bracket…North Allegheny defeated Pittsburgh Central Catholic on their road to the finals. So the argument that every Catholic/Private has an advantage goes down the drain.

I see excluding St Joes as just another IUP Rule type move.

However, what I do hold against Prep is that they only played 4 teams from PA during the regular season and it was their PCL Red Division opponents. I think to qualify for the PIAA playoffs you have to play a certain amount of teams in the PIAA. They were playing a lot of East coast Catholic Powers along with IMG. Either play a PIAA schedule or firm a national high school league.

The problem is that your comparison isn't even necessarily applicable. What Central Catholic does in the Pittsburgh area is pretty different than St. Joe's Prep in Philly. A couple years ago, St. Joe's had kids from 11 states on a team that won a state championship. Central Catholic has kids coming from school districts around Pittsburgh.

Overall, I don't believe that private schools should be competing against public schools athletically, but I think we can agree that how some of these schools operate varies. Not defending Central Catholic, but you can't compare St. Joe's (a prep school recruiting nationally) to Central Catholic (a school that may or may not be poaching kids from in and around Pittsburgh).

And to your earlier points, some smaller private schools stink in athletics. In Western PA, you've got other schools like Greensburg Central Catholic and Serra Catholic who aren't athletic powerhouses. They have some sports where they are strong some years, but rarely ever football. Serra is really good at baseball. GCC had a period where they were a very strong basketball school. But you rarely see as large of an uproar about those two compared to Central Catholic. Probably because they don't win in football. But probably also because the districts they may be pulling from are not necessarily all "small schools," so the impact of losing a student athlete isn't as significant.

[IUPNation]

So looking at the bracket…North Allegheny defeated Pittsburgh Central Catholic on their road to the finals. So the argument that every Catholic/Private has an advantage goes down the drain.

I see excluding St Joes as just another IUP Rule type move.

However, what I do hold against Prep is that they only played 4 teams from PA during the regular season and it was their PCL Red Division opponents. I think to qualify for the PIAA playoffs you have to play a certain amount of teams in the PIAA. They were playing a lot of East coast Catholic Powers along with IMG. Either play a PIAA schedule or firm a national high school league.

[IUP24]

It has nothing to do with the classifications. It's the WPIAL's rigidity to only having one-class divisions that causes a lot of the issues. There's nothing stopping them from making divisions that make more geographic sense, but they self-impose the restriction that all teams within each division have to be the same class. There are plenty of conferences out east that have teams from multiple classifications and it works just fine, not sure why the WPIAL has to pretend it's special. And the PIAA sure doesn't have to consider what the WPIAL wants when it sets its classifications, either.

There was an original plan that some in the WPIAL had proposed that would have actually kept all the schools in their original classifications the same, and then there would be some creativity to figure out who advanced to reach the state playoffs. Given that they would have 2 additional classes. That never happened though. It was mostly because of when the state playoffs would start compared to when all classes would play the WPIAL championship.

[IUP24]

I don't really follow the WPIAL or even PA HS football but I thought the topic was about why the WPIAL isn't as prominent as it once was. I think that is a result of other factors, not the classification system. Nor do I think that, in reference to your above point, that there is some east of Harrisburg conspiracy to hurt the WPIAL. Also, your comments about the WPIAL being more important than state championships fits with the parochial nature of Western PA., IMO.

There was discussion about Catholic/private schools, St. Joseph’s Prep in particular, dominating PA high school football. Then the comment was made that the only reason people care is because it isn’t a WPIAL school dominating. To which I interjected that what you primarily hear from WPIAL folks isn’t about private schools, rather the six classification structure which may not have necessarily benefited their district.

But I never said that there was a direct conspiracy to “hurt the WPIAL.” It’s pretty well known how the powers within the WPIAL feel about themselves, right or wrong. In PIAA circles it’s mostly known that the larger leadership doesn’t like that attitude within the WPIAL relative to the bigger picture of how the PIAA is governed and what’s best for the PIAA as a whole. The WPIAL fought tooth and nail against the reclassification. They were the only district to do so. I absolutely do not believe whatsoever that reclassifying to 6 classes was done to “hurt the WPIAL.” Now… Do I think when the discussions at the table were occurring, it probably made a number of people pretty satisfied that the WPIAL was not going to get their way? Yeah, absolutely.

[EastStroud13]

I'm not sure that it watered it down as much as it disrupted longstanding rivalries and conferences. The old WPIAL AAA and AAAA were great. The Quad North Conference of Butler, Fox Chapel, North Allegheny, North Hills, Seneca Valley, and Shaler had history and geography that made it so fun. Now it's all ripped up. Unfortunately it's also time to disband District 8 and work the Pittsburgh schools into the WPIAL.

It has nothing to do with the classifications. It's the WPIAL's rigidity to only having one-class divisions that causes a lot of the issues. There's nothing stopping them from making divisions that make more geographic sense, but they self-impose the restriction that all teams within each division have to be the same class. There are plenty of conferences out east that have teams from multiple classifications and it works just fine, not sure why the WPIAL has to pretend it's special. And the PIAA sure doesn't have to consider what the WPIAL wants when it sets its classifications, either.

[EastStroud13]

My issue with Imhotep is that they're a charter school pulling from the entire city. They are a de facto All Star Team for the School District of Philadelphia outsourced to the Imhotep board. No cost barrier for a charter school vs. St. Josephs or Father Judge. Doesn't anyone find it odd that out of 190,000 students and 57 high schools, it looks like NOT ONE public high school from Philadelphia has ever played in the PIAA championship game? (Please correct me if I'm wrong). I had the same problem with Lincoln Park Performing Arts Charter High School operating out of beyond depressed Midland, PA (so poor they closed the high school & kids go to high school in Ohio), who was pulling kids from as far as a 2 hour drive to play basketball. And of the ones I personally met, there's NO WAY in hell they were doing any performing arts not called basketball. My dog was smarter. Imagine kids from Bucks County attending a specific charter school in Chester, PA.

To me, the line is clear. Are you operated by a Pennsylvania school district? Congrats, I consider you a boundary school for the purposes of athletics. Charter schools like Imhotep that aren't operated by a District play by different rules, and it's silly to pretend that they don't.

[IUPNation]

Oh, come on. It doesn’t matter what end of the state these private schools are located. NONE of them should be competing in the championships with private schools and any suggestion that they should be, and that it’s an even playing field, is ridiculous.

Sorry most 6A public schools are in wealthy suburban areas. They have resources that poor inner city and poor rural schools don’t have…

North Allegheny plays in a stadium that is better than every Pee Sack school’s stadium.

Again I went to a Catholic High School that got pummeled every year by the public school.

St Joe’s was a nobody in the PCL for years..the diocese owned schools were the powerhouses. Thry just got their act together. You mean rich public schools can’t beat a private school in the middle on lower income North Philly?

[iupgroundhog]

What specifically?

That going to 6 classifications watered down the WPIAL? Because it did. Plenty of coaches are on record talking about the competitive balance having been greatly impacted by it. That’s not just my opinion. It worked well for many districts, but not for the WPIAL.

Or that kids in the Pittsburgh area care more about playing at Heinz Field than winning the state championship at Cumberland Valley? Because the mystique and fantasies aren’t about winning state in Western PA, the stories passed down and told between generations are about playing for a WPIAL Championship.

I’m not entirely sure what’s “interesting” in that.

I don't really follow the WPIAL or even PA HS football but I thought the topic was about why the WPIAL isn't as prominent as it once was. I think that is a result of other factors, not the classification system. Nor do I think that, in reference to your above point, that there is some east of Harrisburg conspiracy to hurt the WPIAL. Also, your comments about the WPIAL being more important than state championships fits with the parochial nature of Western PA., IMO.

[Fightingscot82]

What specifically?

That going to 6 classifications watered down the WPIAL? Because it did. Plenty of coaches are on record talking about the competitive balance having been greatly impacted by it. That’s not just my opinion. It worked well for many districts, but not for the WPIAL.

Or that kids in the Pittsburgh area care more about playing at Heinz Field than winning the state championship at Cumberland Valley? Because the mystique and fantasies aren’t about winning state in Western PA, the stories passed down and told between generations are about playing for a WPIAL Championship.

I’m not entirely sure what’s “interesting” in that.

I'm not sure that it watered it down as much as it disrupted longstanding rivalries and conferences. The old WPIAL AAA and AAAA were great. The Quad North Conference of Butler, Fox Chapel, North Allegheny, North Hills, Seneca Valley, and Shaler had history and geography that made it so fun. Now it's all ripped up. Unfortunately it's also time to disband District 8 and work the Pittsburgh schools into the WPIAL.

[IUP24]

That's an interesting rationalization.

What specifically?

That going to 6 classifications watered down the WPIAL? Because it did. Plenty of coaches are on record talking about the competitive balance having been greatly impacted by it. That’s not just my opinion. It worked well for many districts, but not for the WPIAL.

Or that kids in the Pittsburgh area care more about playing at Heinz Field than winning the state championship at Cumberland Valley? Because the mystique and fantasies aren’t about winning state in Western PA, the stories passed down and told between generations are about playing for a WPIAL Championship.

I’m not entirely sure what’s “interesting” in that.