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  • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
    It will be interesting to see if they look at reducing the number of programs at some of these schools and moving them down to D3.
    I don't know how much savings can be had by dropping to D3 since all athletic scholarship money is private money. Coaches tend to make less at D3 but they're not going to dock a coach's pay just because they bumped down. Travel costs are already pretty low in the PSAC.

    Programs are being looked at for ROI the same way they're evaluating academic majors. The only difference is how it affects enrollment. Eliminated majors do a teach out: current students finish and the school stops accepting new students so it goes away over time. In sports the players almost always leave right away. Assuming most players enrollment is contingent on playing their sport, most PSAC programs can be "profitable."

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    • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
      It will be interesting to see if they look at reducing the number of programs at some of these schools and moving them down to D3.
      Several of them, for all intents and purposes, already are on the field.

      Comment



      • I
        n the merger of schools in Georgia, Armstrong University lost all of its athletics to Georgia Southern — the larger school. So, no more Mat-Town USA with stories like Ronnie Perry’s magical run to the 2018 finals.
        No more national championships or NCAA tournaments for LHU Softball with dominating pitchers like Becca Slattery and Kristen Erb buckling the knees of opposing batters.
        No more body painted Crimson Crazies at the Stern Complex screaming our Cross-country team on to victory.
        https://www.lockhaven.com/opinion/le...ersity-merger/


        Comment


        • You can take the college out of the Mat-Town but you can't take the Mat-Town out of the college.

          Comment


          • I doubt that they do away with every sport at a school. It seems when people argue things they tend to take extremes.

            The author does have an interesting point about the sustainability plans making integrations not necessary. I do think that the sustainability plans probably call for layoffs.

            The big issue that they point out is the Chancellor can give no details on what the end product will look like. That leads to any and all speculation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
              I doubt that they do away with every sport at a school. It seems when people argue things they tend to take extremes.

              The author does have an interesting point about the sustainability plans making integrations not necessary. I do think that the sustainability plans probably call for layoffs.

              The big issue that they point out is the Chancellor can give no details on what the end product will look like. That leads to any and all speculation.
              I would bet that the Chancellor doesn't have a detailed vision for the merged schools, instead, I think this a step toward closing some of the schools, and reducing costs of the admin functions. He will throw it back at the faculty at the merged schools, and talk about innovation, and meeting new challenges, etc. No one knows how the student recruitment will go post covid/ post merger. And how will faculty really perform given the new situation. Some are being retrenched, the best ones will find jobs at more successful universities, the rest will phone it in until retirement.
              There will be a group that tries to take a positive view, and make something happen. But it will get more futile at the smaller universities.

              I agree the changes over the next few years will not generally be as extreme as some people say. But 5 to 10 years down the road, when this all shakes out, and the Chancellor has moved on, it will be a very much smaller state system. , with a lot fewer trappings of traditional universities - PSU and Pitt will be enough for that. PASSHE will be for future teachers, healthcare workers, and bureaucrats.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

                I would bet that the Chancellor doesn't have a detailed vision for the merged schools, instead, I think this a step toward closing some of the schools, and reducing costs of the admin functions. He will throw it back at the faculty at the merged schools, and talk about innovation, and meeting new challenges, etc. No one knows how the student recruitment will go post covid/ post merger. And how will faculty really perform given the new situation. Some are being retrenched, the best ones will find jobs at more successful universities, the rest will phone it in until retirement.
                There will be a group that tries to take a positive view, and make something happen. But it will get more futile at the smaller universities.
                It's not a strategy.

                You are right that he might not have a detailed vision for the merged schools. And that's not a good thing. If he does have a detailed vision he needs to lay it out for the schools and the public.

                You can't implement these initial steps that will likely cripple some of the schools and then say 'See, these schools aren't viable. so we have to take further steps.' He needs to lay out a long-term plan or this isn't going to work and everybody will lose.

                However, there are things that are implied. It's plain to see that the Northcentral plan will have the effect of reducing LHU to a Bloom outpost. Given the current size of the school when you gut it according to the existing plan it will lead to a downward spiral. So. LHU won't survive under Greenstein's plan. That is a significant thing.

                Nor is the Western PA plan strategic. A regional strategy would encompass all of the regional resources, i.e. inclusive of SRU and IUP It doesn't seem to go anywhere by combining the 3 most struggling schools into one. I think geography plays a role and throwing Cal into the mix with Clarion and Edinboro makes little sense.

                Greenstein's original plan didn't freak everybody out. But what appears happened is that SRU pressured him and was able to get out of the merger talks. That should not have happened. Additionally, IUP is now at about 65% capacity. IMO. that should be addressed by combining IUP and Cal.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

                  You can take the college out of the Mat-Town but you can't take the Mat-Town out of the college.
                  Perhaps a little heavy on the athletics end of it. As much as we care about our sports, the school is there for education first.

                  But I think the letter makes great points otherwise.

                  I've been knocked in the past for what others call a "what about the waitresses?" outlook. But a drop in LHU's status would have an adverse effect on the entire community. Same for any college town facing merger.

                  I'd go as far as to say that the state needs to account for leaking money on its schools, and accept it as the cost of doing business in higher education.
                  Last edited by jrshooter; 10-24-2020, 09:45 AM.

                  Comment


                  • There is no plan because the two triads will be different from the other. My concern is that there's not a best practice out there to follow or inspire and no clear framework for our needs. Texas consolidated campuses to create a larger D1 school. It worked because that's what students wanted. That's not the plan here. Georgia paired strong schools with struggling schools and community colleges. It hasn't worked. The savings have been minimal, especially in Savannah where the Georgia Southern & Armstrong State merger has resulted in a 20% enrollment decline. We also don't know how prospective students will react. This should scare us because above all the decrease in enrollment is driving this.

                    I don't think that big athletics cuts will come. It's short sighted because our costs are low and drive enrollment. Cutting LH football makes the triad lose 100+ students. This is why Mansfield didn't cut football outright. I bet we'll see coaching staff reductions. I've heard rumors of a ratio for FT coaches such as one for every 30 participants.

                    FWIW, only the legislature can close a PASSHE school, and we know that's very unlikely. The system board can merge and consolidate but they can't close.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
                      There is no plan because the two triads will be different from the other.
                      I think there has to be a plan.

                      The reason being is that the cat has been let out of the bag and it's not just about making the schools and the system economically viable. It's about public perceptions, the viability of the communities, and the culture of the communities.

                      I think there are a lot of roadblocks ahead.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jrshooter View Post

                        Perhaps a little heavy on the athletics end of it. As much as we care about our sports, the school is there for education first.

                        But I think the letter makes great points otherwise.

                        I've been knocked in the past for what others call a "what about the waitresses?" outlook. But a drop in LHU's status would have an adverse effect on the entire community. Same for any college town facing merger.

                        I'd go as far as to say that the state needs to account for leaking money on its schools, and accept it as the cost of doing business in higher education.
                        I agree that it's sports-heavy but he might just be reinforcing his point. I am both an academic person and a sports person so I get it, I think.

                        When asked about implications for athletics and whether he has consulted the NCAA Greenstein couldn't answer. I kind of think that is unacceptable.

                        If you take away the football misery, LHU is a sports school and LH is a sports town. Taking that away is a real hit to the local culture.

                        No other PSAC school has racked up as many NCAA championships across different men's and women's sports as LHU. I know Bloom has accumulated a lot of Field Hockey championships in D2 but that is only since LHU moved up to D1 in FH. The Haven program was always ahead of Bloom.

                        As the letter writer mentioned, 20% of LHU's student population are NCAA athletes. No other PSAC school comes close to that.

                        Of course, the wrestling is well-known. The writer mentions the cross-country course which LHU even allows PSU to use for meets. The legacy of women's sports. Even on the club level the Boxing Club is one of the top intercollegiate programs and brings in the service academies and others for meets. Ship also comes for that so maybe you are aware of it.

                        So, I think answers need to be given related to sports upfront.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

                          I agree that it's sports-heavy but he might just be reinforcing his point. I am both an academic person and a sports person so I get it, I think.

                          When asked about implications for athletics and whether he has consulted the NCAA Greenstein couldn't answer. I kind of think that is unacceptable.

                          If you take away the football misery, LHU is a sports school and LH is a sports town. Taking that away is a real hit to the local culture.

                          No other PSAC school has racked up as many NCAA championships across different men's and women's sports as LHU. I know Bloom has accumulated a lot of Field Hockey championships in D2 but that is only since LHU moved up to D1 in FH. The Haven program was always ahead of Bloom.

                          As the letter writer mentioned, 20% of LHU's student population are NCAA athletes. No other PSAC school comes close to that.

                          Of course, the wrestling is well-known. The writer mentions the cross-country course which LHU even allows PSU to use for meets. The legacy of women's sports. Even on the club level the Boxing Club is one of the top intercollegiate programs and brings in the service academies and others for meets. Ship also comes for that so maybe you are aware of it.

                          So, I think answers need to be given related to sports upfront.
                          All great evidence for keeping athletics largely intact at all schools.

                          It's not Greenstein's place to contact the NCAA. The individual schools but not a state bureaucrat. If it's one school with one administration/faculty/accreditation then it's up to the one school.

                          There is precedence for one school with multiple campuses competing at the same level. Southern Illinois does this at the D1 level although they belong to different conferences. Fairleigh Dickinson has two campuses with different classifications similar to what LIU did.
                          Last edited by Fightingscot82; 10-24-2020, 06:31 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Good NYT article. Covers a lot of ground. Greenstein mentioned.
                            https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/co...?ocid=msedgntp

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post
                              Good NYT article. Covers a lot of ground. Greenstein mentioned.
                              https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/co...?ocid=msedgntp
                              I just finished reading it. Goes to show that PASSHE isn't operating in a vacuum.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

                                It's not a strategy.

                                You are right that he might not have a detailed vision for the merged schools. And that's not a good thing. If he does have a detailed vision he needs to lay it out for the schools and the public.

                                You can't implement these initial steps that will likely cripple some of the schools and then say 'See, these schools aren't viable. so we have to take further steps.' He needs to lay out a long-term plan or this isn't going to work and everybody will lose.

                                However, there are things that are implied. It's plain to see that the Northcentral plan will have the effect of reducing LHU to a Bloom outpost. Given the current size of the school when you gut it according to the existing plan it will lead to a downward spiral. So. LHU won't survive under Greenstein's plan. That is a significant thing.

                                Nor is the Western PA plan strategic. A regional strategy would encompass all of the regional resources, i.e. inclusive of SRU and IUP It doesn't seem to go anywhere by combining the 3 most struggling schools into one. I think geography plays a role and throwing Cal into the mix with Clarion and Edinboro makes little sense.

                                Greenstein's original plan didn't freak everybody out. But what appears happened is that SRU pressured him and was able to get out of the merger talks. That should not have happened. Additionally, IUP is now at about 65% capacity. IMO. that should be addressed by combining IUP and Cal.
                                This has some really good points. I think what they're banking on is schools with 5k, 5k, and 7k enrollment for instance combining and having 17k enrollment at the end. But, then you eliminate a bunch of programs which leads to less faculty, and you share services and have less staff. And then: Voila! Your personnel costs are much less and you have the same amount of students.

                                But, a lot of these schools are already short-staffed in departments as a common cost savings measure was to not rehire positions when people left or retired, I just don't see how like 1/3 of the staff are going to support 3x the customer without quality going down. You can apply that to Faculty also although with online classes you can theoretically put more kids in a class. But, maybe you can't...because real-time Zoom classes seem to be catching on. Not sure you can just jam 40 kids on a zoom call.

                                This is strange to me also. They're looking at sharing services regionally and as a system. Purchasing is an example which will have East and West. They're not looking to eliminate employees which I deduce. They're looking to have schools all buy from the same place. Now in some cases this results in cost savings, but not always. Also, schools buy some products from local vendors. Not buying from them hurts them.

                                Then, they're looking at sharing resources among the triad. Eliminating programs. Sharing administrative functions...which sounds great. And maybe for like payroll it will work great. But, I don't see like 1/3 of the Admission Staff for instance just doing 3 times the work. It's like that for a lot of functions. And on payroll, it's not like schools have 10 payroll employees. It's probably 2-3 each.

                                Then, they have the sustainability plans which I believe were developed in isolation and not considering the triads. And they were accelerated.

                                re: Sharing Services - It's a great concept. But, to become a service provider...you need common processes and procedures. Many of these schools, if they were assessed for process maturity...would be level 0 or level 1. Just fixing this lack of process, would probably help retention. But, to merge a bunch of entities with no to little processes and figure that all out on the fly...has little shot to work in an optimal way.

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