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  • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

    40% enrollment decline if you go back to the peak in 2010. But the local state legislator is right. When there's decreased demand, you have to make changes. When there's a significant decrease in revenue, you have to significantly cut expenses. I know a few faculty at IUP and an Edinboro professor that I'm still close with received his notice. I feel for them and their situation. But the union will criticize the plan and say that it's the wrong decision - but fail to offer the alternative. It's Catch 22 for senior leadership.

    Thanks for pointing out the staff layoff number. That's big because most of these unionized staff are student-facing. They're housing staff, admissions counselors, financial aid counselors, student activities, etc. This isn't fewer accountants, HR benefits managers, or Assistant VP of Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion. Student touch-points are more critical now than ever as the experience becomes way less personal. The staff union, SCUPA, isn't as large or powerful or vocal as the professors union.
    Indeed. So quality goes down and that hurts retention. Same with a lot of these schools cutting services/technologies to save money. Cutting those things may have let you keep a person or 2 a little longer, but hurts quality, so you probably lose students.

    It's kind of a big death spiral. The whole thing is. Even the integration. You basically have to put out all this PR about the schools doing bad financially, and then the unions put out their PR. Some people will not go here because of the bad press from that. And that appears to have played out in Georgia. Just hopefully being able to offer programs in new areas helps.

    As far as the plan being right/wrong - It's the hand we're dealt. Can't play all aces if you don't have any aces. The ideal world, the state funding never goes down and chances are these schools cost less and have more students now. It's basic economics. As your price rises, you get less students. Although, even when enrollment was high, I don't know that all the schools were doing great financially. I read an interesting article yesterday about how sometimes you can have more students and do worse financially, depending on efficiency and cost to add a student.

    It just sucks. The whole situation. And this isn't only happening in PASSHE. Other schools in the US are doing layoffs. It appears there will just be less higher ed jobs all around. Less professors. Less staff jobs, etc.

    Which gets to my last point: Maybe there are just too many schools in Pennsylvania and some need to go out of business? I know it's brutal, but consumers vote with their dollar. And man...if IUP located where they are is struggling this bad - $16 million loss - that should say a lot. It's not like 10 schools in PASSHE are doing good, and a couple doing bad. All but 2-3 are in various stages of trouble. PASSHE is looking out for PASSHE and trying to keep them all going, but that may not be the best thing. I think the problem with that is, so many are doing bad that it's not a matter of shutting down 1-2. They'd need to shut down 5-6 and there is a cost to that. If that cost wasn't there, I think they'd do it.
    Last edited by complaint_hopeful; 10-30-2020, 12:05 PM.

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    • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

      Indeed. So quality goes down and that hurts retention. Same with a lot of these schools cutting services/technologies to save money. Cutting those things may have let you keep a person or 2 a little longer, but hurts quality, so you probably lose students.

      It's kind of a big death spiral. The whole thing is. Even the integration. You basically have to put out all this PR about the schools doing bad financially, and then the unions put out their PR. Some people will not go here because of the bad press from that. And that appears to have played out in Georgia. Just hopefully being able to offer programs in new areas helps.

      As far as the plan being right/wrong - It's the hand we're dealt. Can't play all aces if you don't have any aces. The ideal world, the state funding never goes down and chances are these schools cost less and have more students now. It's basic economics. As your price rises, you get less students. Although, even when enrollment was high, I don't know that all the schools were doing great financially. I read an interesting article yesterday about how sometimes you can have more students and do worse financially, depending on efficiency and cost to add a student.

      It just sucks. The whole situation. And this isn't only happening in PASSHE. Other schools in the US are doing layoffs. It appears there will just be less higher ed jobs all around. Less professors. Less staff jobs, etc.

      Which gets to my last point: Maybe there are just too many schools in Pennsylvania and some need to go out of business? I know it's brutal, but consumers vote with their dollar. And man...if IUP located where they are is struggling this bad - $16 million loss - that should say a lot. It's not like 10 schools in PASSHE are doing good, and a couple doing bad. All but 2-3 are in various stages of trouble. PASSHE is looking out for PASSHE and trying to keep them all going, but that may not be the best thing. I think the problem with that is, so many are doing bad that it's not a matter of shutting down 1-2. They'd need to shut down 5-6 and there is a cost to that. If that cost wasn't there, I think they'd do it.
      I actually think the schools are in a much better place than they were 18 months ago. They're not nimble enterprises and can't make quick swings to correct the P&L report. Most employees are union - and the state did a disservice by agreeing to a long timeline for layoffs for these folks that unless a position is vacant, it takes 6 months before that position is off the books. The largest source of revenue (tuition) has been at a steady decline for the last several years but the biggest expense (personnel) hasn't been corrected. After the early retirements, buyouts, and layoffs the personnel expenses are at a much more manageable place than before. I actually think the consolidation plan should be kicked down the road to give the schools an opportunity to figure out this new model. Maybe with some aggressive marketing & recruiting, the leaner expenses, and some creative pricing maybe things can turn around. Should they have sooner? Absolutely. But again, these aren't nimble enterprises. Bringing somebody in with Black Belt Lean Six Sigma certifications isn't going to fix the problems.

      Comment


      • Can a Fighting Scot become a Vulcan? It won’t be easy to merge identities of some Pa. colleges

        He recalled the 1967 marriage of Case Institute of Technology and Western Reserve University to form Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland. That painstaking evolution spanned generations and included a new school of management and two separate alumni associations.
        http://www.mcall.com/news/pennsylvan...wum-story.html

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        • "California, Clarion and Edinboro universities would function as a single unit specializing in online education, and Bloomsburg, Lock Haven and Mansfield would focus on stackable and nondegree credentials, PASSHE officials have said. "


          https://www.educationdive.com/news/p...m-cuts/588220/

          What would a nondegree credential include? EMT, CPR, fracking equipment, CDL, lifeguard certification? You don't need a university for certificates.








          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bart View Post
            "California, Clarion and Edinboro universities would function as a single unit specializing in online education, and Bloomsburg, Lock Haven and Mansfield would focus on stackable and nondegree credentials, PASSHE officials have said. "


            https://www.educationdive.com/news/p...m-cuts/588220/

            What would a nondegree credential include? EMT, CPR, fracking equipment, CDL, lifeguard certification? You don't need a university for certificates.







            Would this 'single unit' in the West have three football programs?


            Sounds like some of these schools are headed toward glorified community college status.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

              Would this 'single unit' in the West have three football programs?


              Sounds like some of these schools are headed toward glorified community college status.
              Headed? :-)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bart View Post
                "California, Clarion and Edinboro universities would function as a single unit specializing in online education, and Bloomsburg, Lock Haven and Mansfield would focus on stackable and nondegree credentials, PASSHE officials have said. "


                https://www.educationdive.com/news/p...m-cuts/588220/

                What would a nondegree credential include? EMT, CPR, fracking equipment, CDL, lifeguard certification? You don't need a university for certificates.







                A certificate that has enough weight behind it to allow someone to leverage it for a career move or more importantly, a career pivot. They're more professional in nature: data analytics, instructional design, project management, etc. Not an additional degree or grad school. Harvard has been doing these for years.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

                  Would this 'single unit' in the West have three football programs?


                  Sounds like some of these schools are headed toward glorified community college status.
                  Probably, even a football team with Edinboro's results the last few years brings in several hundred thousand more than it costs to operate. If it doesn't make sense to cut athletics, it only makes a stronger case to walk away from the integration.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                    A certificate that has enough weight behind it to allow someone to leverage it for a career move or more importantly, a career pivot. They're more professional in nature: data analytics, instructional design, project management, etc. Not an additional degree or grad school. Harvard has been doing these for years.

                    I wonder how many certificates a student could get in 4 or 5 years to stay eligible for athletic competition? Do you need a degree to get a certificate?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                      Probably, even a football team with Edinboro's results the last few years brings in several hundred thousand more than it costs to operate. If it doesn't make sense to cut athletics, it only makes a stronger case to walk away from the integration.
                      Hopefully they keep them. But, it's starting to sound like Pitt-BFE playing Pitt-BFE.

                      But, hey, West Penn U can say it has three varsity football teams -- all in the same division. That's kind of weird. The academics will love it.

                      Comment


                      • Curious to see things in 5 years. I have doubts Seton Hill stays up in D2 much longer. They are a perfect fit for the Presidents' Conference (D3).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bart View Post
                          "California, Clarion and Edinboro universities would function as a single unit specializing in online education, and Bloomsburg, Lock Haven and Mansfield would focus on stackable and nondegree credentials, PASSHE officials have said. "


                          https://www.educationdive.com/news/p...m-cuts/588220/

                          What would a nondegree credential include? EMT, CPR, fracking equipment, CDL, lifeguard certification? You don't need a university for certificates.
                          Once for Main Line School Night I took a course in Harmonica at Lower Merion HS. It didn't really enhance my career prospects but it was a lot of fun. A friend of mine took the Drum Circle thing (Intro to ...) and that did come in handy at parties.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post
                            Once for Main Line School Night I took a course in Harmonica at Lower Merion HS. It didn't really enhance my career prospects but it was a lot of fun. A friend of mine took the Drum Circle thing (Intro to ...) and that did come in handy at parties.
                            We already have the party reputation, so we don't need certificates on karaoke. Harvard has some interesting certificates: https://www.extension.harvard.edu/ac...e-certificates
                            It seems they take anyone with a degree, so why would someone go to Mansfield for a certificate. Harvard can sell these pieces of paper because the dupes want to say they went to Harvard. Harvard on the resume may get you somewhere.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bart View Post


                              I wonder how many certificates a student could get in 4 or 5 years to stay eligible for athletic competition? Do you need a degree to get a certificate?
                              I think they have to be in a degree program otherwise we'd see more 5th year guys in the existing certificate programs or picking up a minor full time. I could be wrong. Until Covid, I was expecting to hear the NCAA say that they must be enrolled in an on-ground program (international students can't come here and do an online only degree program).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bart View Post

                                We already have the party reputation, so we don't need certificates on karaoke. Harvard has some interesting certificates: https://www.extension.harvard.edu/ac...e-certificates
                                It seems they take anyone with a degree, so why would someone go to Mansfield for a certificate. Harvard can sell these pieces of paper because the dupes want to say they went to Harvard. Harvard on the resume may get you somewhere.
                                I think the stackable credentials/more adult education/workforce development is a good idea. I would go big-time, make it a program across all 14 schools i.e. statewide, and develop a formal relationship with the Department of Labor.

                                It's a competitive market (just like the online deal is for the west schools). If they can cut costs while developing new sources of revenue that will help.

                                If you're talking programs like FS82 mentioned (data analytics, project management) you also have to consider that Bloom-Lock Haven-Mansfield is located amidst a rural economy. How much local demand is there for these offerings?

                                Comment

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