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  • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

    So... the larger the roster is the less likely the sport is to be dropped?

    I'm going to stick with the Title IX implications. By fielding a football team and creating 80 or so "opportunities" for male athletes, how many women's sports have to be fielded to offset FB on gender?
    I think when you are looking at number of tuition paying students, then yes, size does matter. Buuuuuttttt...an equalizing factor is the high administrative cost of football (equipment, facilities, coaching staffs, etc).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
      But would they lose 75-100 students if they cut football or would it be some subset of that? Quite a few of the non-scolly players end up going to their particular school because they are the only place that offered them a football slot. Absent another walk-on offer, they are probably going to go anyway. If a school drops football, yes, their enrolement will drop...but I don't think it drops by 100.

      Dropping to Sprint or perhaps D3 at a couple of schools is an interesting proposition. You are cutting some of the cost of coaching overhead...also depending on how you schedule, you could save on travel costs AND if you maintain the roster at 100 players, you net the same tuition going to the school. On the down side you probably effect alumni donations for at least a few years. The question is does the decreased cost of dropping to D3 OR Sprint offset the decline in alumni donations?
      Yeah I think most do leave if they can continue to play football elsewhere. The walk on or small money kid from a nearby high school might stay. But there are a lot of D3 football programs looking for players every year.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
        Many variables in determining ROI. Much will depend on if they have a preconcieved outcome in mind and then develop a process that get's them to the desired end state OR do they develop the process and then let the final numbers decide. Also important that they develop one process that is applied to each of the six schools equally.
        There are state directives on how to calculate the ROI. Its also built in to the software they purchased to do the financial analysis. Everyone knows that the system they use does not work well for small departments, as the ROI varies wildly from year to year. By small I mean 100 or less students. Something like having 20% of a team take a class from an old full professor, in a small class, instead of the same course from an adjunct instructor in a huge class could make a huge difference. This varies from year to year, so they assume it averages out - but it doesn't because course selection by students is not random. In the end, someone can always step in and justify something that has low ROI, and include intangibles.

        However, I sadly think that PASSHE is at the point that those in charge don't believe increasing enrollment is an option to solve the currrent crisis, and are in only cost cutting mode. So even if there is an argument that enrollment will be slightly higher because of athletics, it isn't enough to make a difference in an environment where you are losing 50% of your students in 10 years, and could saddle you with costs down the road if the ROI gets lower since costs of running the program will probably increase significantly over the next few years.

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        • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

          However, as described in the PASSHE document, how ROI is measured is a complex issue.

          Title IX is a major issue (as always). Several of these "triad" schools have Title IX issues already. The merger can be a way to remedy that. If they were to adhere to a strict financial ROI model it would definitely discriminate against women's sports.

          It will be interesting to see how they handle the 5 D1 sports involved.

          When I first read this I thought that would be terrible for Clarion, Edinboro and Lock Haven. But, Sprint Football is better than no football. And, it keeps a roster full of students paying their own way. Your current staff of coaches likely all leaves (or is let go). Sprint coaches, I assume, are probably really young guys looking for a first job in coaching -- or, really old guys looking for a last job in coaching. Either way, the salary is much less. I also assume they have less (and drastically less paid) assistants.

          Being honest, I usually forget Mansfield even has a Sprint team. Is there any interest in it from the community?

          I'd assume most of the remaining varsity players all transfer mostly to schools in the PSAC. IUP and SRU will have a bidding war over some of the top ones.

          It's just hard to justify the threesome keeping three varsity football teams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

            It's just hard to justify the threesome keeping three varsity football teams.
            Presumably of the two triples, CAL and BLOOM would be the teams to carry on at the D2 level. IMO Sprint FB would be a nice option for the other three schools unless they wanted to explore D3.

            Comment


            • Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

              Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
                Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

                Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.
                Am I correct in that the sport you choose to play up a level can't be basketball, baseball or football? That would throw the title IX numbers completely off

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
                  Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

                  Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.
                  All teams at the same level (D1, DII, D3)...Yep with the D1 exceptions you note. Buuuuutttttt...If a school downgraded to SPRINT football, they could stay at DII. From a dollars and cents standpoint, it makes sense...100 tuition paying players, cheaper coaching staffs and a better ability to control travel expenses.

                  I personally believe that the combined schools are going to treat athletics the same way they apparently are going to treat academics...one consolidated program with little if any overlap. For example, one campus will house the football team, another the basketball team, etc, etc. One AD with "assistant AD's" at the two campuses were the actual AD is housed. For football, I would think Bloom and Cal will house the football team.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                    All teams at the same level (D1, DII, D3)...Yep with the D1 exceptions you note. Buuuuutttttt...If a school downgraded to SPRINT football, they could stay at DII. From a dollars and cents standpoint, it makes sense...100 tuition paying players, cheaper coaching staffs and a better ability to control travel expenses.

                    I personally believe that the combined schools are going to treat athletics the same way they apparently are going to treat academics...one consolidated program with little if any overlap. For example, one campus will house the football team, another the basketball team, etc, etc. One AD with "assistant AD's" at the two campuses were the actual AD is housed. For football, I would think Bloom and Cal will house the football team.

                    That seems to make sense ... but imagine a 6,000 seat, state of the art basketball arena in the center of the Cal campus used for intramurals.

                    Granted, only about 200 people go to the Vulcan home games. But, what in the world else do you do with that thing?

                    Clarion also just did a $72m upgrade on Tippin Gymnasium last year.

                    Quite a mess for them to sort out.

                    My opinion: Cal keeps men's basketball. Clarion gets football. Edinboro gets women's basketball. Of course, the Cal people would probably pick their well-established women's basketball program over their men's team.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
                      Just to remind everyone, all programs must compete in the same NCAA classification. So all sports must compete at the D1, D2, or D3 levels. Schools can apply to "play up" in one sport (usually wrestling and ice hockey) but you can't "play down".

                      Also, the PASSHE system requires athletic aid to be funded with external dollars. So every athletic scholarship dollar comes from a donation, a fundraiser, or gameday revenue. Housing and meal plan waivers are allowed because they're auxiliary fees. All this means that dropping to D3 doesn't mean instant savings over D2. Our conference is relatively compact and our schools don't have the money to pay an exit fee ($80k) and play an independent schedule while searching for a conference.
                      I would think (hope) that if the PSAC went to the NCAA and made the argument that in line with the remodeling of PASSHE, that if those 14 schools would like to reshuffle the deck and move 4-6 schools out of PSAC to D3 conferences that would accept them, they could get a hearing. This would be a one time thing with negotiated fees to apply and no going back.
                      My ideal PSAC post PASSHE would be WEST- IUP, SRU, CAL, GU, MC, SHU and EAST- BU, ESU, KU, SHIP, WC, SHEP.
                      Yes I do realize this is all an illusion but it is 2020 and a good deal of my life feel like that.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                        All teams at the same level (D1, DII, D3)...Yep with the D1 exceptions you note. Buuuuutttttt...If a school downgraded to SPRINT football, they could stay at DII. From a dollars and cents standpoint, it makes sense...100 tuition paying players, cheaper coaching staffs and a better ability to control travel expenses.

                        I personally believe that the combined schools are going to treat athletics the same way they apparently are going to treat academics...one consolidated program with little if any overlap. For example, one campus will house the football team, another the basketball team, etc, etc. One AD with "assistant AD's" at the two campuses were the actual AD is housed. For football, I would think Bloom and Cal will house the football team.
                        What's the benefit to that though? Again, they cut expenses but they also lose a ton of students who take their tuition money with them. The merger is meant to save administrative costs, but its brought on by declining revenue. It wouldn't make sense to cut costs that guarantee additional revenue losses.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                          What's the benefit to that though? Again, they cut expenses but they also lose a ton of students who take their tuition money with them. The merger is meant to save administrative costs, but its brought on by declining revenue. It wouldn't make sense to cut costs that guarantee additional revenue losses.
                          They may lose their current players (at lest the ones with other options), but they bring in new players who play on the sprint team. Your assumption seems to be based on the school loosing all 100 players and not replacing them. Weather you bring in 100 full tuition paying DII players or 100 full tuition paying Sprint players, that's still 100 students paying full tuition. Were you save is on coaches salaries both in actual compensation amount and in number of coaches (for example, Mansfield shows two coaches including the HC), and number of games (again, Mansfield showed seven regular season games).

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                            They may lose their current players (at lest the ones with other options), but they bring in new players who play on the sprint team. Your assumption seems to be based on the school loosing all 100 players and not replacing them. Weather you bring in 100 full tuition paying DII players or 100 full tuition paying Sprint players, that's still 100 students paying full tuition. Were you save is on coaches salaries both in actual compensation amount and in number of coaches (for example, Mansfield shows two coaches including the HC), and number of games (again, Mansfield showed seven regular season games).
                            Question would be what does it do to the gate -- and also in alumni support, interest and (most importantly) donations?

                            If IUP or SRU went Sprint ... well, the math wouldn't be pretty. I think most view it as a mix between 13th Grade football and glorified intramurals.

                            Maybe over time it would gain speed at Cal, Clarion, Boro ... wherever. But, initially it's going to be met with very negative perception.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

                              Question would be what does it do to the gate -- and also in alumni support, interest and (most importantly) donations?

                              If IUP or SRU went Sprint ... well, the math wouldn't be pretty. I think most view it as a mix between 13th Grade football and glorified intramurals.

                              Maybe over time it would gain speed at Cal, Clarion, Boro ... wherever. But, initially it's going to be met with very negative perception.
                              I agree about the negative perception but heck, the whole process is being met with negative perceptions. People are going to meet any change suggestion with reasons why THAT shouldn't or CAN'T be done. But somthing needs to be done and the time for simple painless adjustments is long since past!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                                I agree about the negative perception but heck, the whole process is being met with negative perceptions. People are going to meet any change suggestion with reasons why THAT shouldn't or CAN'T be done. But somthing needs to be done and the time for simple painless adjustments is long since past!
                                Is Sprint considered an NCAA sport or is it Club status?

                                Club status would be the work around the equal gender item.

                                It's hard to come up with a scenario that doesn't end bad for those on the chopping block.

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