PASSHE Institutions Merging

[IUPalum]

Blinders still on!!! Perfect!

[Fightingscot82]

Blinders still on!!! Perfect!

If football brings in $750k in tuition & fees above expenses, they'd be stupid to cut it. Reducing football roster spots by 33% is kissing 75-100 students goodbye.

Dropping football to sprint may not save much. I guess you could cut coaching staff. There's longer travel involved and you basically punt on football alumni fundraising. Both Edinboro and Clarion have strong football alumni groups. Unsure about Cal. I heard from multiple sources that until the integration, the last two Mansfield presidents were researching a return to D2 football as a strategy to grow enrollment. Granted, none were Mansfield sources.

Basketball is an easy target because salary is generally expensive and there's lots of travel for a small roster. But I can't think of one school that has cut basketball. So we'll more likely see coaching staffs and operating expenses reduced to bare bones. Easier to cut $50k by eliminating an assistant coach than finding $50k in operating expenses.

[iupgroundhog]

If football brings in $750k in tuition & fees above expenses, they'd be stupid to cut it.

Basketball is an easy target because salary is generally expensive and there's lots of travel for a small roster. But I can't think of one school that has cut basketball. So we'll more likely see coaching staffs and operating expenses reduced to bare bones. Easier to cut $50k by eliminating an assistant coach than finding $50k in operating expenses.

So... the larger the roster is the less likely the sport is to be dropped?

I'm going to stick with the Title IX implications. By fielding a football team and creating 80 or so "opportunities" for male athletes, how many women's sports have to be fielded to offset FB on gender?

[Fightingscot82]

So... the larger the roster is the less likely the sport is to be dropped?

I'm going to stick with the Title IX implications. By fielding a football team and creating 80 or so "opportunities" for male athletes, how many women's sports have to be fielded to offset FB on gender?

I think that's fair if gender equity can be achieved - but then again - when you cut programs you also cut tuition revenue. The reason these schools are merging is because they're losing tuition revenue. If anything, they should consider adding low cost sports that could result in additional tuition. There's even a book about it written by the president at Adrian College in Michigan.

[CALUPA69]

I think that's fair if gender equity can be achieved - but then again - when you cut programs you also cut tuition revenue. The reason these schools are merging is because they're losing tuition revenue. If anything, they should consider adding low cost sports that could result in additional tuition. There's even a book about it written by the president at Adrian College in Michigan.

Here's a suggestion that doesn't involve direct contact, is already highly organized at the HS level and ties in nicely to the STEM curriculum at a number of campuses....
https://botsiqpa.org/high-school-robotics/

[IUPalum]

If football brings in $750k in tuition & fees above expenses, they'd be stupid to cut it. Reducing football roster spots by 33% is kissing 75-100 students goodbye.

Dropping football to sprint may not save much. I guess you could cut coaching staff. There's longer travel involved and you basically punt on football alumni fundraising. Both Edinboro and Clarion have strong football alumni groups. Unsure about Cal. I heard from multiple sources that until the integration, the last two Mansfield presidents were researching a return to D2 football as a strategy to grow enrollment. Granted, none were Mansfield sources.

Basketball is an easy target because salary is generally expensive and there's lots of travel for a small roster. But I can't think of one school that has cut basketball. So we'll more likely see coaching staffs and operating expenses reduced to bare bones. Easier to cut $50k by eliminating an assistant coach than finding $50k in operating expenses.

If they have such strong alumni groups then why aren't they even close to funding the full scholarship amounts?

[iupgroundhog]

Dropping football to sprint may not save much. I guess you could cut coaching staff. There's longer travel involved and you basically punt on football alumni fundraising. Both Edinboro and Clarion have strong football alumni groups. Unsure about Cal. I heard from multiple sources that until the integration, the last two Mansfield presidents were researching a return to D2 football as a strategy to grow enrollment. Granted, none were Mansfield sources.

I posted an article last week that quoted a Mansfield source saying dropping to Sprint saved on 80% of the costs.

What I have read is that Mansfield's issue with Sprint is due to a lack of competition. Some of the existing programs have shut down. However, if you had Mansfield, LHU, Clarion, and Edinboro with Sprint teams then they can add a couple of non-PSAC teams and I think it would work. I'm speculating but it could be something to look into.

[Fightingscot82]

If they have such strong alumni groups then why aren't they even close to funding the full scholarship amounts?

Terrible athletic development director. But a strong group doesn't always mean money.

[boatcapt]

However, as described in the PASSHE document, how ROI is measured is a complex issue.

Title IX is a major issue (as always). Several of these "triad" schools have Title IX issues already. The merger can be a way to remedy that. If they were to adhere to a strict financial ROI model it would definitely discriminate against women's sports.

It will be interesting to see how they handle the 5 D1 sports involved.

Your putting the ROI determination for athletics largely in the hands of academics (or former academics who are now administrators). Some are "pro athletic" but there are quite a few academics that think athletics is nothing but a dollar suck that takes $ from academic programs. They will attempt to frame the ROI measurements in a manner that devalues athletics and makes it appear more expensive than maybe it is. They will want to include things such as maintenance of the physical plant to include the stadium, practice field, field houses, locker rooms, etc...Alumni donations that now go to athletics that would be reprogrammed to academics...the cost of Title IX compliance...etc, etc, etc.

[Fightingscot82]

Your putting the ROI determination for athletics largely in the hands of academics (or former academics who are now administrators). Some are "pro athletic" but there are quite a few academics that think athletics is nothing but a dollar suck that takes $ from academic programs. They will attempt to frame the ROI measurements in a manner that devalues athletics and makes it appear more expensive than maybe it is. They will want to include things such as maintenance of the physical plant to include the stadium, practice field, field houses, locker rooms, etc...Alumni donations that now go to athletics that would be reprogrammed to academics...the cost of Title IX compliance...etc, etc, etc.

The Athletics working group for the West:

Len Cullo, Vice President Finance + Administration, Clarion
Karen Hjerpe, Athletic Director, Cal U
Bob Mehalik, NCAA Faculty Athletic Representative, Cal U
Jenni Morison, Associate Athletic Director, Cal U
DJ Bevevino, Associate Athletic Director, Clarion
Sean Fagan, Sports Information Director, Clarion
Wendy Snodgrass, Director of Intercollegiate Athletics, Clarion
Andrew Matt, Title IX Coordinator & Investigator, Edinboro
Chad Williams, Associate Athletic Director, Edinboro
Katherine Robbins, Director of Athletics, Edinboro

[boatcapt]

The Athletics working group for the West:

Len Cullo, Vice President Finance + Administration, Clarion
Karen Hjerpe, Athletic Director, Cal U
Bob Mehalik, NCAA Faculty Athletic Representative, Cal U
Jenni Morison, Associate Athletic Director, Cal U
DJ Bevevino, Associate Athletic Director, Clarion
Sean Fagan, Sports Information Director, Clarion
Wendy Snodgrass, Director of Intercollegiate Athletics, Clarion
Andrew Matt, Title IX Coordinator & Investigator, Edinboro
Chad Williams, Associate Athletic Director, Edinboro
Katherine Robbins, Director of Athletics, Edinboro

Then there is nothing to worry about. No athletic programs will be cut at any of the colleges. All set for each university grouping having 3 football programs...3 men's and women's basketball teams, etc!

[Fightingscot82]

Then there is nothing to worry about. No athletic programs will be cut at any of the colleges. All set for each university grouping having 3 football programs...3 men's and women's basketball teams, etc!

I've hashed out the case for football several times. Basketball is a losing program at most schools but it also generates gameday revenue that funds scholarships for other sports. So if you can run a lean basketball program it benefits the entire department. IUP may be the exception that their increased spending is justified by making more revenue. Edinboro basketball also gets 25-30 stories on 3 TV channels in Erie. That's something the other two schools can't offer. If Clarion didn't just have a total refurbishment of their main facility, they'd be in defensive situation with athletics.

[boatcapt]

I've hashed out the case for football several times. Basketball is a losing program at most schools but it also generates gameday revenue that funds scholarships for other sports. So if you can run a lean basketball program it benefits the entire department. IUP may be the exception that their increased spending is justified by making more revenue. Edinboro basketball also gets 25-30 stories on 3 TV channels in Erie. That's something the other two schools can't offer. If Clarion didn't just have a total refurbishment of their main facility, they'd be in defensive situation with athletics.

I wonder how many academic programs are truly profitable when you start factoring in the facility costs? For example, for schools with music departments, when you factor in the cost of maintaining the band facilities and equipment, do they truly provide a positive ROI?

From what I have read about these two mergers, the big cost saving measure they talk about is eliminating program duplication, efficiencies earned by shared services and one administration with a common budget. If you use that as a guide, would it be more expensive to as a grouping to run three separate football programs and three distinct basketball programs OR would it be more efficient for each of these groupings to have one football and one basketball program?

[boatcapt]

If football brings in $750k in tuition & fees above expenses, they'd be stupid to cut it. Reducing football roster spots by 33% is kissing 75-100 students goodbye.

Dropping football to sprint may not save much. I guess you could cut coaching staff. There's longer travel involved and you basically punt on football alumni fundraising. Both Edinboro and Clarion have strong football alumni groups. Unsure about Cal. I heard from multiple sources that until the integration, the last two Mansfield presidents were researching a return to D2 football as a strategy to grow enrollment. Granted, none were Mansfield sources.

Basketball is an easy target because salary is generally expensive and there's lots of travel for a small roster. But I can't think of one school that has cut basketball. So we'll more likely see coaching staffs and operating expenses reduced to bare bones. Easier to cut $50k by eliminating an assistant coach than finding $50k in operating expenses.

But would they lose 75-100 students if they cut football or would it be some subset of that? Quite a few of the non-scolly players end up going to their particular school because they are the only place that offered them a football slot. Absent another walk-on offer, they are probably going to go anyway. If a school drops football, yes, their enrolement will drop...but I don't think it drops by 100.

Dropping to Sprint or perhaps D3 at a couple of schools is an interesting proposition. You are cutting some of the cost of coaching overhead...also depending on how you schedule, you could save on travel costs AND if you maintain the roster at 100 players, you net the same tuition going to the school. On the down side you probably effect alumni donations for at least a few years. The question is does the decreased cost of dropping to D3 OR Sprint offset the decline in alumni donations?

[boatcapt]

How they decide to do the ROI is going to be the key, and its really tricky. First, the ROI for students normally depends on which classes they take, I suspect Athletes take a schedule that is more costly than average (more small classes), but I don't know. They do take fewer classes often. So the ROI is tuition - cost to offer specific classes + an administrative fee. Will this be the standard one used for academic departments ? You could argue it should be higher, since there are additional administrators, specifically for athletics, + the admins for academics. It could also be lower. since they may just claim the admin costs are part of the academic end. And then how do you figure the value of athletics for fund raising. Like most cases, they make a gut level decision, and make the numbers come out to support it later.

Many variables in determining ROI. Much will depend on if they have a preconcieved outcome in mind and then develop a process that get's them to the desired end state OR do they develop the process and then let the final numbers decide. Also important that they develop one process that is applied to each of the six schools equally.