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  • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

    Some of these notices went out before the retirement incentive went into effect so I wonder if these numbers will be reduced. Unfortunately, full-time faculty positions don't have much turnover so its been hard to gradually reduce the faculty count as enrollment dwindled.

    Conversely, I guess Edinboro could lay off an entire department creating immediate savings and have those courses taught remotely by the department at Clarion or California. I don't think that's a good way to learn, though.
    They might be reduced a bit, and they can withdraw the retrenchment, depending on future retirements of faculty by this summer, or an unexpected uptick in enrollment. Alot will depend on how the presidents decide to do the cuts, if they target departments or programs, then there is nothing anyone can do, if they are just "right sizing" departments, retirements might impact it, since no reason to layoff someone only to replace them in 2 years. I expect some Union action as well. If they don't their done - just imagine the dues they are losing. so there may be a little give in the numbers, for the sake of appearances.

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    • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

      Some of these notices went out before the retirement incentive went into effect so I wonder if these numbers will be reduced. Unfortunately, full-time faculty positions don't have much turnover so its been hard to gradually reduce the faculty count as enrollment dwindled.

      Conversely, I guess Edinboro could lay off an entire department creating immediate savings and have those courses taught remotely by the department at Clarion or California. I don't think that's a good way to learn, though.
      The interesting thing will be how they split up the revenue in that scenario.

      Like say Edinboro gets rid of an entire English Depth and Cal or Clarion teach those classes. How much revenue would go back to Edinboro to essentially do nothing?

      Of course, if these schools all become 1 school I guess that won't matter.
      Last edited by complaint_hopeful; 10-07-2020, 02:13 PM.

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      • "If the pattern does not change, PASSHE could see Lock Haven and Shippensburg Universities become insolvent and Bloomsburg, East Stroudsburg and Millersville Universities become financially unstable."

        http://www.theonlinerocket.com/news/...-goes-virtual/







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        • Originally posted by Bart View Post
          "If the pattern does not change, PASSHE could see Lock Haven and Shippensburg Universities become insolvent and Bloomsburg, East Stroudsburg and Millersville Universities become financially unstable."

          http://www.theonlinerocket.com/news/...-goes-virtual/
          I find that article to be confusing. It's the first I've heard of the schools being referred to as "insolvent." Are they insolvent? That means they can't meet their general financial obligations or debt obligations.

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          • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

            I find that article to be confusing. It's the first I've heard of the schools being referred to as "insolvent." Are they insolvent? That means they can't meet their general financial obligations or debt obligations.
            It was also in the Indiana newspaper article I posted on 10-3-20. The system listed a ladder with those at the top-financially stable, next was financially healthy but showing signs of weakening, followed by financially unstable, and the bottom are “insolvent” Cheyney, Clarion, Edinboro and Mansfield.

            https://www.indianagazette.com/news/...716f19b0b.html

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            • Originally posted by Bart View Post
              It was also in the Indiana newspaper article I posted on 10-3-20. The system listed a ladder with those at the top-financially stable, next was financially healthy but showing signs of weakening, followed by financially unstable, and the bottom are “insolvent” Cheyney, Clarion, Edinboro and Mansfield.

              https://www.indianagazette.com/news/...716f19b0b.html
              I don't think Greenstein is winning any PR battles right now.

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              • Still not convinced Uncle Sam is going to flush any of these schools down the toilet.

                Although it reminds me of owning a pond with way too many Bass in it and not enough food for them. None of them grow big. They all become stagnant and stunted. The only way to fix it is to start eliminating the smaller Bass.

                The PASSHE is a pond with way too many GD fish in it.

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                • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
                  Still not convinced Uncle Sam is going to flush any of these schools down the toilet.

                  Although it reminds me of owning a pond with way too many Bass in it and not enough food for them. None of them grow big. They all become stagnant and stunted. The only way to fix it is to start eliminating the smaller Bass.

                  The PASSHE is a pond with way too many GD fish in it.
                  The system is on the verge of collapse, so the answer is to bailout the schools that are failing. It seems they should be investing in the winning schools, and not propping up those that are failing. Why would it cost $200 million to close or mothball a school?

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                  • Originally posted by Bart View Post

                    The system is on the verge of collapse, so the answer is to bailout the schools that are failing. It seems they should be investing in the winning schools, and not propping up those that are failing. Why would it cost $200 million to close or mothball a school?
                    I suppose there would be significant legal and legislative challenges to closing a school like Mansfield. I'm not sure you could do it without the legislator's approval. Then there is the costs of maintaining the grounds, with 0 income - it wouldn't be like an old shuttered factory. Its a good question, and the real answer is probably that no one has ever really thought about what closing a university would look like. No one wants the image of old boarded up university buildings - there has to be something to replace it,

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bart View Post

                      The system is on the verge of collapse, so the answer is to bailout the schools that are failing. It seems they should be investing in the winning schools, and not propping up those that are failing. Why would it cost $200 million to close or mothball a school?
                      Right now, the only "winning schools" are Slippery Rock and West Chester.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

                        I find that article to be confusing. It's the first I've heard of the schools being referred to as "insolvent." Are they insolvent? That means they can't meet their general financial obligations or debt obligations.
                        I think if you add to that Can't meet their financial obligations without dipping into reserves. I think that's their definition of insolvent. ie Can't atleast break even. Schools are depleting reserves which will eventually run out. Then, they will be unable to meet their financial obligations.

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                        • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

                          I don't think Greenstein is winning any PR battles right now.
                          At what point does all this uncertainty with PASSHE and news of schools being insolvent and financially unstable poison the well and make students go to other schools?

                          To a large extent, the major news stations don't seem to be picking this up. It seems mainly the small local papers and Universities run the stories on this stuff. The Faculty Union is launching a whole campaign about how retrenchment will mean lower quality for students. And they may be right. But, is all this bad press going to just mean less students?

                          APSCUF discusses retrenchment at town hall -
                          APSCUF President explains faculty layoffs happening at PASSHE universities
                          http://www.theonlinerocket.com/news/...-at-town-hall/

                          And of course students and faculty will not want to see faculty lose their jobs. But, the finances are so bad that schools may go out of business. This isn't a situation where doing nothing makes it better. Heck, even making these changes might not fix it. It might be too late. We may just need less schools.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
                            Still not convinced Uncle Sam is going to flush any of these schools down the toilet.

                            Although it reminds me of owning a pond with way too many Bass in it and not enough food for them. None of them grow big. They all become stagnant and stunted. The only way to fix it is to start eliminating the smaller Bass.

                            The PASSHE is a pond with way too many GD fish in it.
                            Right! And all of the state subsidy over the years encourage inefficiency. Schools likely grew above where they should have. And they were scaled to the prosperous times, which is why they want to reduce ratios to 2010 numbers.

                            But, if you look at these schools...I think you'll see a lot of inefficiency. They can cut costs all they want, but many of the schools lack even fundamental documented business processes. If you evaluated them on a business process maturity model, they'd be very low. This translates to a lesser product. ie Is it easy for a potential student to become a student? I'm fairly sure if you look at some that their processes hold them back.

                            And that same lack of process needs addressed in this shared services model that they're going to. To become a service provider, that stuff needs defined all the more.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

                              I suppose there would be significant legal and legislative challenges to closing a school like Mansfield. I'm not sure you could do it without the legislator's approval. Then there is the costs of maintaining the grounds, with 0 income - it wouldn't be like an old shuttered factory. Its a good question, and the real answer is probably that no one has ever really thought about what closing a university would look like. No one wants the image of old boarded up university buildings - there has to be something to replace it,
                              Just spitballing here, but I wonder if the better partnership isn't like an SNHU and one of these schools. Take one with a nice campus. Then do a whole new model in that.

                              Instead you're merging schools like Cal U (unstable) with Clarion (Insolvent) and Edinboro (Insolvent). So the best school in that partnership is unstable. I doubt that some great innovation comes out of that. You may be able to reduce Staff/Faculty and have maybe 1 English program for 3 schools, etc to save that way. But, you'll almost certainly lose students.

                              Why not sale say a Cal U who has a nice campus to an SNHU (assuming they want a physical campus.) Continue to reduce buildings on campus Demo'ing the old buildings. Reduce business functions that SNHU provides. Keep the ones that need an online presence. You would use SNHU's processes.

                              Just an example, but I think this seems to make more sense.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

                                I think if you add to that Can't meet their financial obligations without dipping into reserves. I think that's their definition of insolvent. ie Can't atleast break even. Schools are depleting reserves which will eventually run out. Then, they will be unable to meet their financial obligations.
                                My understanding is that financially troubled or whatever the middle tier (at one point called Yellow by PASSHE) is currently operating at a loss mitigated by dipping into reserves; "insolvent" might mean right now there isn't a path that won't exhaust their reserves or their reserves are already exhausted. This probably also takes into consideration an assumption that state appropriation is going to take a massive hit for the 20-21 fiscal year.

                                My assumption for Edinboro is between the spring refund and online fall semester, the housing debt is killing their reserves.

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