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  • Now Greenstein and the University of Chaney President are speaking. Chaney talked about what they did there. Greenstein is saying that redesign is learning from Chaney in regards to the financial path they took. ie Descent into financial distress is predictable.

    He feels like what happened at Chaney could be a model for schools with niche programs. But, it's more a niche thing that they do. The NE and West are driving regional economies. So what worked at Chaney wouldn't work there.

    He talked about how bleak the finances are and how the remaining reserves will go quick if we do nothing.

    Now the Clarion President is speaking. She's basically reading a press release. Told stories of a couple grads from 2 schools. She's basically just talking about why the 3 schools are important.
    Last edited by complaint_hopeful; 05-17-2021, 10:05 AM.

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    • In today's Post-Gazette: https://www.post-gazette.com/news/ed...s/202105130143

      If you can't read it without subscribing, copy the link into an incognito browser window.

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      • From @statesystem Twitter:
        "We will grow not shrink; we will not merely survive but we will thrive in future generations." President Pehrsson (@Edinboro @clarionu) said in testimony at #PASenate Democratic Caucus Policy Committee Hearing. Learn more about university integrations: http://passhe.edu/integrations

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        • Clarion Pres just said that they see other schools trying to steal our students because of the uncertainty.

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          • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
            In today's Post-Gazette: https://www.post-gazette.com/news/ed...s/202105130143

            If you can't read it without subscribing, copy the link into an incognito browser window.
            It all comes down to the state funding. This discussion starts and ends with that.

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            • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
              Now Greenstein and the University of Chaney President are speaking. Chaney talked about what they did there. Greenstein is saying that redesign is learning from Chaney in regards to the financial path they took. ie Descent into financial distress is predictable.

              He feels like what happened at Chaney could be a model for schools with niche programs. But, it's more a niche thing that they do. The NE and West are driving regional economies. So what worked at Chaney wouldn't work there.

              He talked about how bleak the finances are and how the remaining reserves will go quick if we do nothing.

              Now the Clarion President is speaking. She's basically reading a press release. Told stories of a couple grads from 2 schools. She's basically just talking about why the 3 schools are important.
              He's right though about Cheyney. HOWEVER...Cheyney was only able to do that because West Chester was so close they could easily take on the extra administrative work.

              This plan can be avoided if the legislature returns the $220+MM they took away a decade ago. If all things stayed the same, that would reduce cost to students by roughly $2,200 each.

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              • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                He's right though about Cheyney. HOWEVER...Cheyney was only able to do that because West Chester was so close they could easily take on the extra administrative work.

                This plan can be avoided if the legislature returns the $220+MM they took away a decade ago. If all things stayed the same, that would reduce cost to students by roughly $2,200 each.
                No doubt. Increase state funding and this is a moot point.

                A Senator just brought up that he thinks the decisions are already made because they're moving forward without waiting for the NCAA and Accredidation results.

                He has a good point. I feel like some of the NCAA and Accredidation results will determine how this is implemented. Like if there is 1 budget and 1 of each Admin department, I think that there will be some pretty serious concerns from the NCAA about competitive balance with all 3 schools being in the same Conference and Division. I feel like they may want some of the Depts and budgets separated.

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                • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                  He's right though about Cheyney. HOWEVER...Cheyney was only able to do that because West Chester was so close they could easily take on the extra administrative work.

                  This plan can be avoided if the legislature returns the $220+MM they took away a decade ago. If all things stayed the same, that would reduce cost to students by roughly $2,200 each.
                  The more I listen to these hearings, I think they waited way too long for this and these schools are basically done...but, they don't want to shut them down. They want to slap a bunch of PR on it about how they will thrive. Well to grow, students have to come from somewhere. Where?

                  I think they're trying to move way too quick on this and the NCAA and Accredidation could stop this.

                  Bottom line is that if the state funding doesn't increase, these schools will die. And probably more than just the Triads eventually. I could see 3-4 going under in the next 5 years.

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                  • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

                    No doubt. Increase state funding and this is a moot point.

                    A Senator just brought up that he thinks the decisions are already made because they're moving forward without waiting for the NCAA and Accredidation results.

                    He has a good point. I feel like some of the NCAA and Accredidation results will determine how this is implemented. Like if there is 1 budget and 1 of each Admin department, I think that there will be some pretty serious concerns from the NCAA about competitive balance with all 3 schools being in the same Conference and Division. I feel like they may want some of the Depts and budgets separated.
                    Accreditation was given a provisional approval. This is why "hub" campuses were decided - and based solely on newness of accreditation (probably to buy time for the future). The NCAA is a big wild card because athletes are roughly 10% of enrollment at PASSHE schools. Consolidation of athletics will result in lost enrollment and make the plans insolvent.

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                    • So the hubs are kind of an example of them having to change the plan some to meet objectives. Like, originally they didn't want a lead campus, but they had to.

                      I suspect the NCAA will require some additional workarounds. There is too much potential there to divert resources to 1 program over the other 2 and load up a team with scholarships.

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                      • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

                        The more I listen to these hearings, I think they waited way too long for this and these schools are basically done...but, they don't want to shut them down. They want to slap a bunch of PR on it about how they will thrive. Well to grow, students have to come from somewhere. Where?

                        I think they're trying to move way too quick on this and the NCAA and Accredidation could stop this.

                        Bottom line is that if the state funding doesn't increase, these schools will die. And probably more than just the Triads eventually. I could see 3-4 going under in the next 5 years.
                        The schools won't die. They'll just be annual money losers - and that extra money has to come from somewhere. The law says that only the legislature can close a campus. As I mentioned before and evident by the tone in these hearings, the legislature doesn't like to end state programs that are big employers and economic boosters in their district. If they haven't ordered Cheyney closed then they're not going to close Clarion.

                        Plus there's a lot of precedent for PA allowing its agencies to accumulate debt and lose money. There are probably too many state parks and state forests. They bring in virtually no revenue and usage isn't actively tracked. We're not discussing closing state parks and state forests.

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                        • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                          The schools won't die. They'll just be annual money losers - and that extra money has to come from somewhere. The law says that only the legislature can close a campus. As I mentioned before and evident by the tone in these hearings, the legislature doesn't like to end state programs that are big employers and economic boosters in their district. If they haven't ordered Cheyney closed then they're not going to close Clarion.

                          Plus there's a lot of precedent for PA allowing its agencies to accumulate debt and lose money. There are probably too many state parks and state forests. They bring in virtually no revenue and usage isn't actively tracked. We're not discussing closing state parks and state forests.
                          And you hit a key point in that the legislature doesn't want to lose the jobs. Nor do the Unions. So you have schools failing financially. The state refusing to fund them more. AND they don't want people laid off. Seems like most of their suggestions are to just save a little bit of money here and there and it's ok. And Greenstein and Co are like, No...it's bleak. We're going to fail soon if we don't go drastic.

                          I think he said Clarion was out of money in the next year. He named another school too. I thought Edinboro, but my audio was shaky. Did you hear the 2nd school?

                          But, this is a system. So say Clarion eats their reserves and starts going negative. The other PASSHE schools kick in the difference. Then say a 2nd school gets in the same boat. Then those schools kick in money. And it's not like there are 5-6 booming schools. There are maybe 2.

                          Hypothetically, in that Triad - IF Clarion and Edinboro are through their reserves in the next year...I don't see how that works. Cal is shaky financially, but better than those 2. But, struggling to stay afloat themselves. I don't see their finances pulling the 2 others up a lot.

                          Of course, this is a moot point if the state increases funding...and maybe that happens if more start to fail?

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                            • I would say in unequivocal terms stop the process until there is a ruling from the NCAA. If the NCAA rules no, the triads are a failure.

                              At this point, how can the process move forward without that ruling?

                              It's bullsh#t.

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                              • The ncaa requires that the school you are playing for is granting the name on the degree

                                So, if the schools merging are still granting degrees

                                This NCAA rules could apply


                                3.02.3.1 Active Member. An active member is a four-year college or university or a two-year upper-level collegiate institution accredited by the appropriate regional accrediting agency (see Constitution 3.2.1.1.1for the accreditation standard for an international institution) and duly elected to active membership under the provisions of this article (see Constitution 3.3.3). Active members have the right to compete in NCAA championships, to vote on legislation and other issues before the Association, and to enjoy other privileges of membership designated in the constitution and bylaws of the Association. (See Constitution 3.3.2.1.1regarding restrictions on the privileges of for-profit institutions.) (Revised: 10/16/12, 10/30/14, 5/15/17, 1/20/18)

                                and the ncaa allows for consortium of schools to field a team



                                3.02.3.1.1 Athletics Consortium. An athletics consortium consists of one member institution and neighboring member or nonmember institutions (but not more than one nonmember institution), recognized and approved by a two-thirds vote of the Management Council. The student-athletes of the combined institutions are permitted to compete on the NCAA member institution's athletics teams, provided they meet the eligibility requirements of the NCAA and the member institution (see Constitution 3.2.2

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