West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Wlu is #2 in scoring. #1 is nova southeastern lol

Take away Crutch putting 133 on a NAIA team (and giving up 106) and WL is ahead of him.


What are your thoughts on this big WL at FSU game this Sunday? After WJ this week FSU gets WL and IUP back-to-back (both in Fairmont).

[IUP Extra Mile]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

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Take away Crutch putting 133 on a NAIA team (and giving up 106) and WL is ahead of him.


What are your thoughts on this big WL at FSU game this Sunday? After WJ this week FSU gets WL and IUP back-to-back (both in Fairmont).

I picked Fairmont in the weekly pick em, only bc you have to favor the home team in that one...I'm a little surprised Fairmont is as good as they are...I thought they had some good seniors who left, but then again, so did WL, and these two are the class of the conference..

If Fairmont happens to sweep WL and IUP, let them host right now...that's pretty impressive...But I dont think they will sweep..

If you were a betting man, would you say Fairmont has better chance of sweeping or getting swept by WL and IUP?

[PSAC76]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Getting swept. It is hard to win games, especially against good teams.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Fairmont has played a good variety of teams so far.

They started 0-2 with tight losses to Ferris State and Missouri Western.

They've played fairly good defensively.

The Falcons held Glenville to just 75 points but also scored just 77 on them. They won a slop fest against WVW (65-52).

They struggled mightily against what is turning out to be a pretty bad Slippery Rock team (won in final seconds). California even gave them a tussle.

There isn't much size on the team. Jason Jolley will always be the X:Factor, and he's obviously well-experienced playing against West Liberty.

From the stats, they aren't playing a real deep rotation. The top three don't come off the floor much. They are very similar to last year's team. IUP really hammered them up here last season. IUP's size and depth will be a major problem for them.

Against West Liberty, it appears to me their bench will be too short to run around for 40 minutes.

So, if I had to bet, I'd pick them to get swept.

That said, they don't lose at home. I've always thought they play more like a top-tier PSAC team than an MEC team. That's a big key for them against WL -- perhaps the biggest key. If they can't dictate the pace I think WL beats them up. If you look at their scores this year, they haven't played one of those MEC-style, 125 to 115, games yet. They don't appear built for that style. They have to slow the game down against WL to have a chance.

[Scrub]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I also picked FSU in the pick 'em. WLU doesn't have a real good track record of going into that building and coming out with a W. Fairmont always finds a way to play us tough, and if Jolly gets going look out. When he's hot, he's borderline unstoppable. I'll never forget the game FSU played up here at WLU last year. Monteroso pretty much held Jolly in check for most of the game, but late in the game with FSU attempting to mount a furious comeback, Jolly started to just chuck it from further and further back each possession (and making them all). It was as though Monteroso was picking him up tight at the 3-point line, so Jolly finally got fed up with that and started shooting from 5 feet behind the line before Monteroso could pick him up. I have nightmares about seeing that guy light it up. Should be a battle, but as was said above, home court advantage offers a slight edge to FSU I would think.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I also picked FSU in the pick 'em. WLU doesn't have a real good track record of going into that building and coming out with a W. Fairmont always finds a way to play us tough, and if Jolly gets going look out. When he's hot, he's borderline unstoppable. I'll never forget the game FSU played up here at WLU last year. Monteroso pretty much held Jolly in check for most of the game, but late in the game with FSU attempting to mount a furious comeback, Jolly started to just chuck it from further and further back each possession (and making them all). It was as though Monteroso was picking him up tight at the 3-point line, so Jolly finally got fed up with that and started shooting from 5 feet behind the line before Monteroso could pick him up. I have nightmares about seeing that guy light it up. Should be a battle, but as was said above, home court advantage offers a slight edge to FSU I would think.

[Scrub]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Tight one with Shepherd last night. I know the game recaps made the story of the game about the Hilltoppers' low shooting percentage. And it's true that they shot the ball terribly. But to me, the story was their difficulty dealing with an athletic big man. Shepherd's D FORCED a low shooting percentage in my opinion. Burgess established early on that there wouldn't be anything easy in the paint. So, with the back cuts getting stuffed by Burgess, Shepherd's guards were able to extend their D and contest every 3 ball. There were very few open looks either inside or outside, and I think that was all a result of the presence of Burgess in the middle. This game, to me, revealed WLU's continued struggle to function in the face of a PSAC-style athletic big man. They lost a game to Kutztown and their bigs, and then almost coughed one up to Burgess and a better-than-usual-but-not-really-that-talented Rams team last night. If those struggles continue, it could mean an early exit in the Regionals. There is certainly time to get it figured out, though, and I'm hopeful the young Toppers will continue to grow as a result of tough games like last night.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Tight one with Shepherd last night. I know the game recaps made the story of the game about the Hilltoppers' low shooting percentage. And it's true that they shot the ball terribly. But to me, the story was their difficulty dealing with an athletic big man. Shepherd's D FORCED a low shooting percentage in my opinion. Burgess established early on that there wouldn't be anything easy in the paint. So, with the back cuts getting stuffed by Burgess, Shepherd's guards were able to extend their D and contest every 3 ball. There were very few open looks either inside or outside, and I think that was all a result of the presence of Burgess in the middle. This game, to me, revealed WLU's continued struggle to function in the face of a PSAC-style athletic big man. They lost a game to Kutztown and their bigs, and then almost coughed one up to Burgess and a better-than-usual-but-not-really-that-talented Rams team last night. If those struggles continue, it could mean an early exit in the Regionals. There is certainly time to get it figured out, though, and I'm hopeful the young Toppers will continue to grow as a result of tough games like last night.

I agree that a talented big man can give WLU trouble. However, I did not think Burgess was much of a factor on defense.

Burgess had zero blocks. He had 8 rebounds, but Meininger had 10. He got many of his points on dunks after Shepherd broke the press. Shepherd chose the strategy to attack the rim when they broke the press.
I thought he was mainly an athletic dunker. He needs to work on this game from 5 -10 ft from the basket. Inside 5 feet he can be tough. IMHO, we need the guard to sag down to disrupt his move and make him pick up the ball and then other players must quickly rotate their defensive assignments so that the open man is not obvious to Burgess (i.e., the open man is not the sagging guard's man) and is at a difficult angle for him to deliver the pass.

If you look at WLU's missed shots, most of them were wide open shots (ignoring the missed foul calls under the basket).
There were also incredible steals and passes that presaged a mini-blackout in the first half, but wl just could not finish at the rim. Based on the game, I suspect that WL must have gotten the message to take the ball to the basket rather than take the three, as Shepherd plays the infamous AAU defense (i.e., none). Yahel Hill just destroyed his man taking him to the rim for layups.


The half-court defense against the dribble drive after a high ball screen (McKnight had 32 going to the rim) needs a lot of work, as there was no help (probably because going to help would leave Burgess open for a pass and dunk in many cases).
Guys have to stay in front of their man.

IMHO there are some positives. In spite of terrible shooting night and bad defense, the turnovers from the pressure of WL and the intense crashing of the glass for offensive rebounds wore shepherd out and were the deciding factors in the victory. The sheer effort of WL for 40 minutes continues to amaze me. In the second half, no one for Shepherd was even trying for offensive boards. Meininger got an offensive rebound on a WL foul shot that Burgess (with inside position) should have easily gotten if he still had legs.

It was one of worst offensive performances I have seen in a while for WL and the defense was terrible. However, the incredible effort in other areas that wore Shepherd out was enough to win.
If WL were clicking offensively, they would have put 130 on Shepherd with McKnight still getting his 30 (their teamwork is that bad with 14 assists and 13 turnovers - just watch the Glenville game).

A lot of good coaching moments from this game for a very young team.

[Dirtybird]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

You do learn and grow as a result of games like this. Those are accurate points made about Burgess. I felt another aspect that hurt WL was the fact no one could keep number 4 from driving to the basket. It seemed like he blew by anyone that matched up with him.

With that said it is a good situation when you can still win games when you don't do the things you typically do well very well. Weird ending to that last sentence but you know what I mean haha.

[Scrub]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

I agree that a talented big man can give WLU trouble. However, I did not think Burgess was much of a factor on defense.

Burgess had zero blocks. He had 8 rebounds, but Meininger had 10. He got many of his points on dunks after Shepherd broke the press. Shepherd chose the strategy to attack the rim when they broke the press.
I thought he was mainly an athletic dunker. He needs to work on this game from 5 -10 ft from the basket. Inside 5 feet he can be tough. IMHO, we need the guard to sag down to disrupt his move and make him pick up the ball and then other players must quickly rotate their defensive assignments so that the open man is not obvious to Burgess (i.e., the open man is not the sagging guard's man) and is at a difficult angle for him to deliver the pass.

You make some good points here, Columbus. But I wasn't thinking of blocks in particular. It just seemed as though every time WLU drove to the bucket in the first half, they altered their shots because they knew he was there. They missed a lot of bunnies during that bad stretch, and I was attempting to attribute those misses not to bad shooting but to the specter of Burgess waiting at the rim. He may not have actually blocked their shots, but I do think he altered their shots. They needed to be more aggressive going right at him (as both Hill and Bolon were in the second half). In addition, he had very active hands on passes into the paint on back cuts. WLU was having trouble getting clean catches on curl cuts that usually equate to easy buckets because of Shepherd defenders' active hands in the paint. So, it's true that Burgess is nothing special in a vacuum (which is why he doesn't bother other teams necesssarily), but he's the type of match-up that seems to bother WLU, and I thought his presence in there and active hands had a lot to do with the extended cold shooting stretch in the first half that kept it so close for so long.

[Scrub]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

The half-court defense against the dribble drive after a high ball screen (McKnight had 32 going to the rim) needs a lot of work, as there was no help (probably because going to help would leave Burgess open for a pass and dunk in many cases).
Guys have to stay in front of their man.

And, yes, great point about the high screen. WLU was terrible at slipping the screen or communicating the switch, which resulted in McKnight getting everything he wanted all night long.

But I wonder (again, not to beat the dead horse on Burgess) if the continued (and wildly unsuccessful) attempts to slip the screen rather than switch off was precipitated by the perceived match-up problem that would have occurred with a switch. You would have ended up with Burgess rolling to the basket with a Dyer, Saben, or Hill in front of him. So rather than consistently switch (which is how WLU defends the screen most nights), they were left a step behind McKnight by sticking with their man. Again, is this the case of the THREAT of Burgess (or any other big man) being impactful more than Burgess himself being impactful?

And it's a bit odd, because they weren't afraid to switch on Voorhees last week. There were plenty of possessions in which Dyer or Hill ended up defending Voorhees. I wonder if that appeared to be less bothersome to WLU because you still have to defend the 3 ball against Voorhees anyway, so at least half of his possessions are outside of the paint. [shrug]

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

In my observation Vorhees isn't real fast. He's big and skilled but he looks slow on tape and doesn't play much defense at all.

I think what you described above is exactly what Ship and Sleva did to WL last season. They knew WL had no answer for him on either end and on the defensive end they had no fear ... thus pushed their guards way out. Griffin and Meiniger (sp) were a total mismatch against Sleva.

Granted few teams can actually pull that off against WL during the regular season. It looked like Shepherd tried to emulate it.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

You make some good points here, Columbus. But I wasn't thinking of blocks in particular. It just seemed as though every time WLU drove to the bucket in the first half, they altered their shots because they knew he was there. They missed a lot of bunnies during that bad stretch, and I was attempting to attribute those misses not to bad shooting but to the specter of Burgess waiting at the rim. He may not have actually blocked their shots, but I do think he altered their shots. They needed to be more aggressive going right at him (as both Hill and Bolon were in the second half). In addition, he had very active hands on passes into the paint on back cuts. WLU was having trouble getting clean catches on curl cuts that usually equate to easy buckets because of Shepherd defenders' active hands in the paint. So, it's true that Burgess is nothing special in a vacuum (which is why he doesn't bother other teams necesssarily), but he's the type of match-up that seems to bother WLU, and I thought his presence in there and active hands had a lot to do with the extended cold shooting stretch in the first half that kept it so close for so long.

Good points.
I agree that you need to attack a big man and go up really close to him as it is harder for him to block without fouling. If you fall away or don't go up close to him you wind up altering your shot and missing or getting it blocked.
WL definitely did not do that against shepherd which allowed Burgess to influence the game as you stated. They need to learn how to attack this type of team as we will see many of them.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Shooting was so bad in first half that they put in "instant offense" - Ariel Watson.
And he delivered. In 4 minutes he scored 5 points (1-1 from 3, 1-2 from 2-pt range). But he committed 2 fouls LOL!
He makes difficult baseline drives look like a walk in the park. He also made a great pass to Nate Allen.
If he develops his defensive game to the level of his offensive gifts, the sky is the limit for him.

[Columbuseer]

Re: West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

Another thing that needs to be corrected - the push off on the rebound. It is a pet peeve.
90% of the time a three from the right corner bounces long off long to the left. Our opponent is pinned in close to the basket and Saben or Moore is behind him. The ball bounces long to the left.
All we have to do is go get it. What do we do? Push the opponent in the back! Very bad habit that they need to break. We have had at least 4 calls in recent games that have negated rebounds and are essentially turnovers.
In IMHO, a better approach is a lower stance ready to jump on the rebound positioned very close to the opponent and then use your hip to subtly push the opponent off balance. Much harder to spot and call and it prevents acting in get the call that you also see on the push off.