OT: D1

[IUP24]

I don't really follow the WPIAL or even PA HS football but I thought the topic was about why the WPIAL isn't as prominent as it once was. I think that is a result of other factors, not the classification system. Nor do I think that, in reference to your above point, that there is some east of Harrisburg conspiracy to hurt the WPIAL. Also, your comments about the WPIAL being more important than state championships fits with the parochial nature of Western PA., IMO.

There was discussion about Catholic/private schools, St. Joseph’s Prep in particular, dominating PA high school football. Then the comment was made that the only reason people care is because it isn’t a WPIAL school dominating. To which I interjected that what you primarily hear from WPIAL folks isn’t about private schools, rather the six classification structure which may not have necessarily benefited their district.

But I never said that there was a direct conspiracy to “hurt the WPIAL.” It’s pretty well known how the powers within the WPIAL feel about themselves, right or wrong. In PIAA circles it’s mostly known that the larger leadership doesn’t like that attitude within the WPIAL relative to the bigger picture of how the PIAA is governed and what’s best for the PIAA as a whole. The WPIAL fought tooth and nail against the reclassification. They were the only district to do so. I absolutely do not believe whatsoever that reclassifying to 6 classes was done to “hurt the WPIAL.” Now… Do I think when the discussions at the table were occurring, it probably made a number of people pretty satisfied that the WPIAL was not going to get their way? Yeah, absolutely.

[IUP24]

It has nothing to do with the classifications. It's the WPIAL's rigidity to only having one-class divisions that causes a lot of the issues. There's nothing stopping them from making divisions that make more geographic sense, but they self-impose the restriction that all teams within each division have to be the same class. There are plenty of conferences out east that have teams from multiple classifications and it works just fine, not sure why the WPIAL has to pretend it's special. And the PIAA sure doesn't have to consider what the WPIAL wants when it sets its classifications, either.

There was an original plan that some in the WPIAL had proposed that would have actually kept all the schools in their original classifications the same, and then there would be some creativity to figure out who advanced to reach the state playoffs. Given that they would have 2 additional classes. That never happened though. It was mostly because of when the state playoffs would start compared to when all classes would play the WPIAL championship.

[IUPNation]

So looking at the bracket…North Allegheny defeated Pittsburgh Central Catholic on their road to the finals. So the argument that every Catholic/Private has an advantage goes down the drain.

I see excluding St Joes as just another IUP Rule type move.

However, what I do hold against Prep is that they only played 4 teams from PA during the regular season and it was their PCL Red Division opponents. I think to qualify for the PIAA playoffs you have to play a certain amount of teams in the PIAA. They were playing a lot of East coast Catholic Powers along with IMG. Either play a PIAA schedule or firm a national high school league.

[IUP24]

So looking at the bracket…North Allegheny defeated Pittsburgh Central Catholic on their road to the finals. So the argument that every Catholic/Private has an advantage goes down the drain.

I see excluding St Joes as just another IUP Rule type move.

However, what I do hold against Prep is that they only played 4 teams from PA during the regular season and it was their PCL Red Division opponents. I think to qualify for the PIAA playoffs you have to play a certain amount of teams in the PIAA. They were playing a lot of East coast Catholic Powers along with IMG. Either play a PIAA schedule or firm a national high school league.

The problem is that your comparison isn't even necessarily applicable. What Central Catholic does in the Pittsburgh area is pretty different than St. Joe's Prep in Philly. A couple years ago, St. Joe's had kids from 11 states on a team that won a state championship. Central Catholic has kids coming from school districts around Pittsburgh.

Overall, I don't believe that private schools should be competing against public schools athletically, but I think we can agree that how some of these schools operate varies. Not defending Central Catholic, but you can't compare St. Joe's (a prep school recruiting nationally) to Central Catholic (a school that may or may not be poaching kids from in and around Pittsburgh).

And to your earlier points, some smaller private schools stink in athletics. In Western PA, you've got other schools like Greensburg Central Catholic and Serra Catholic who aren't athletic powerhouses. They have some sports where they are strong some years, but rarely ever football. Serra is really good at baseball. GCC had a period where they were a very strong basketball school. But you rarely see as large of an uproar about those two compared to Central Catholic. Probably because they don't win in football. But probably also because the districts they may be pulling from are not necessarily all "small schools," so the impact of losing a student athlete isn't as significant.

[IUPNation]

The problem is that your comparison isn't even necessarily applicable. What Central Catholic does in the Pittsburgh area is pretty different than St. Joe's Prep in Philly. A couple years ago, St. Joe's had kids from 11 states on a team that won a state championship. Central Catholic has kids coming from school districts around Pittsburgh.

Overall, I don't believe that private schools should be competing against public schools athletically, but I think we can agree that how some of these schools operate varies. Not defending Central Catholic, but you can't compare St. Joe's (a prep school recruiting nationally) to Central Catholic (a school that may or may not be poaching kids from in and around Pittsburgh).

And to your earlier points, some smaller private schools stink in athletics. In Western PA, you've got other schools like Greensburg Central Catholic and Serra Catholic who aren't athletic powerhouses. They have some sports where they are strong some years, but rarely ever football. Serra is really good at baseball. GCC had a period where they were a very strong basketball school. But you rarely see as large of an uproar about those two compared to Central Catholic. Probably because they don't win in football. But probably also because the districts they may be pulling from are not necessarily all "small schools," so the impact of losing a student athlete isn't as significant.

What difference does it make where the students come from? It’s a private school in the ghetto. How amazing that they can get anyone at all. North Allegheny has a big leafy campus. So they have advantages too. St. Joes was a nothing burger for a long time in Foosball in the PCL.

I just don’t like excluding schools because they are going the extra mile because it’s reeks of the IUP Rule.

However I would support the PIAA not including St Joes in a bracket for not playing a required amount of games against PIAA member schools. Four games just isn’t sufficient and that alone should disqualify them from a state title bid.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

The problem is that your comparison isn't even necessarily applicable. What Central Catholic does in the Pittsburgh area is pretty different than St. Joe's Prep in Philly. A couple years ago, St. Joe's had kids from 11 states on a team that won a state championship. Central Catholic has kids coming from school districts around Pittsburgh.

Overall, I don't believe that private schools should be competing against public schools athletically, but I think we can agree that how some of these schools operate varies. Not defending Central Catholic, but you can't compare St. Joe's (a prep school recruiting nationally) to Central Catholic (a school that may or may not be poaching kids from in and around Pittsburgh).

And to your earlier points, some smaller private schools stink in athletics. In Western PA, you've got other schools like Greensburg Central Catholic and Serra Catholic who aren't athletic powerhouses. They have some sports where they are strong some years, but rarely ever football. Serra is really good at baseball. GCC had a period where they were a very strong basketball school. But you rarely see as large of an uproar about those two compared to Central Catholic. Probably because they don't win in football. But probably also because the districts they may be pulling from are not necessarily all "small schools," so the impact of losing a student athlete isn't as significant.

GCC is also a tiny school -- playing against other tiny schools. Trust me, down in their little world, there is plenty of yapping about GCC and recruiting. To your point, because they are down in A or AA, they don't get nearly the hoopla. Indiana High just lost its star girls basketball player to GCC.

GCC also tends to recruit kids from similar small schools. PCC lands kids from the big schools, which generally comes with more social media fuss.

As to your point about PCC recruiting locally and St. Joe's recruiting nationally ... well, you can't be kind of pregnant. Recruiting is recruiting. I'd make the analogy that St. Joe's is recruiting on an SEC level. PCC is more on a MAC level. Nonetheless, they are both recruiting.

I'm a little closer to this situation as my alma mater has been hammered with star player defections to both GCC and PCC. It just crushes the 'do it right' programs who play the hand they are dealt.

Within the WPIAL, North Catholic is going to be the next power. The seeds are already planted.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

What difference does it make where the students come from? It’s a private school in the ghetto. How amazing that they can get anyone at all. North Allegheny has a big leafy campus. So they have advantages too. St. Joes was a nothing burger for a long time in Foosball in the PCL.

I just don’t like excluding schools because they are going the extra mile because it’s reeks of the IUP Rule.

However I would support the PIAA not including St Joes in a bracket for not playing a required amount of games against PIAA member schools. Four games just isn’t sufficient and that alone should disqualify them from a state title bid.

As I don't know the history, how did they turn "a private school in the ghetto" in to a national football power?

Obviously they are winning big now and have become a P5 hotbed, which recruits kids in itself. But, how did this all get started?

[IUPNation]

As I don't know the history, how did they turn "a private school in the ghetto" in to a national football power?

Obviously they are winning big now and have become a P5 hotbed, which recruits kids in itself. But, how did this all get started?

I say that because it’s not some prep school with the state of the art campus in a rich area. It’s at 17th and Girard in North Philly. It’s seeing some gentrification around the school but it’s still not the best part of town. It’s certainly not up in Chestnut Hill.

They don’t really have a home stadium and played a majority of their regular season as the road team. The only home PCL game they had was played at Franklin Field vs LASalle which is the other non diocese owned school in the PCL. They rolled their PCL competition by an average score of 47-7. Playing 5 games vs non PA teams is a problem. That alone could prompt the PiAA from giving them a playoff bid.

How did it get started? Rich alumni I’m sure, because as I said before when I was in high school they were only good in basketball like my school.

[Fightingscot82]

So looking at the bracket…North Allegheny defeated Pittsburgh Central Catholic on their road to the finals. So the argument that every Catholic/Private has an advantage goes down the drain.

I see excluding St Joes as just another IUP Rule type move.

However, what I do hold against Prep is that they only played 4 teams from PA during the regular season and it was their PCL Red Division opponents. I think to qualify for the PIAA playoffs you have to play a certain amount of teams in the PIAA. They were playing a lot of East coast Catholic Powers along with IMG. Either play a PIAA schedule or firm a national high school league.

Prep's challenge is that there aren't many large schools in District 10. Most of what used to be AAA schools are losing students and are now AA or AAA in the new levels. Meadville has shrunk a ton. Erie city schools condensed down to one team.

NA is huge, upper middle class, has an excellent academic reputation, and attractive. When families with decent income move to Pittsburgh, its automatically on the short list. Central Catholic eviscerated the other Catholic high schools in the region. Rich kids whose families don't care about sports send their kids to Sewickley Academy or Shadyside Academy. Ellis is for the yuppies whose girls have D1 field hockey potential. North Catholic moved out of the city to Cranberry to compete, effectively putting Vincentian Academy out of business. If your son is a good athlete and you can afford whatever they charge you for admission, Central Catholic is an attractive option. Its academic reputation is only average. If Dan Marino didn't go to Central Catholic, that program would be nothing.

[Fightingscot82]

What difference does it make where the students come from? It’s a private school in the ghetto. How amazing that they can get anyone at all. North Allegheny has a big leafy campus. So they have advantages too. St. Joes was a nothing burger for a long time in Foosball in the PCL.

I just don’t like excluding schools because they are going the extra mile because it’s reeks of the IUP Rule.

However I would support the PIAA not including St Joes in a bracket for not playing a required amount of games against PIAA member schools. Four games just isn’t sufficient and that alone should disqualify them from a state title bid.

LOLOL NA does not have a "big leafy campus." Its a giant concrete and asphalt complex along Route 19 in behind shopping centers and car dealerships. It looks a lot more wooded from Google Maps aerial view but its on the brow of a hill. Most of the complex is sports fields and parking lots.

[IUPNation]

LOLOL NA does not have a "big leafy campus." It’s a giant concrete and asphalt complex along Route 19 in behind shopping centers and car dealerships. It looks a lot more wooded from Google Maps aerial view but it’s on the brow of a hill. Most of the complex is sports fields and parking lots.

It’s still a nicer place than 17th and Girard.

[EastStroud13]

Prep's challenge is that there aren't many large schools in District 10. Most of what used to be AAA schools are losing students and are now AA or AAA in the new levels. Meadville has shrunk a ton. Erie city schools condensed down to one team.

"Prep" in Nation's post refers to SJP. Cathedral Prep is its own can of worms.

[WarriorVoice]

"Prep" in Nation's post refers to SJP. Cathedral Prep is its own can of worms.

I actually attended St. Joe's Prep, Class of 1982. The biggest sport at the time was Crew. Basketball was a better program then football during my years there, and there was't a wrestling team until the mid 90s. Back to football...The Prep WAS a football power in the 1920s and 30s, winning 9 PCL titles, but it wasn't until the mid 90's that Prep begin winning consistently.

[IUP24]

GCC is also a tiny school -- playing against other tiny schools. Trust me, down in their little world, there is plenty of yapping about GCC and recruiting. To your point, because they are down in A or AA, they don't get nearly the hoopla. Indiana High just lost its star girls basketball player to GCC.

GCC also tends to recruit kids from similar small schools. PCC lands kids from the big schools, which generally comes with more social media fuss.

As to your point about PCC recruiting locally and St. Joe's recruiting nationally ... well, you can't be kind of pregnant. Recruiting is recruiting. I'd make the analogy that St. Joe's is recruiting on an SEC level. PCC is more on a MAC level. Nonetheless, they are both recruiting.

I'm a little closer to this situation as my alma mater has been hammered with star player defections to both GCC and PCC. It just crushes the 'do it right' programs who play the hand they are dealt.

Within the WPIAL, North Catholic is going to be the next power. The seeds are already planted.

North Catholic has been away from Troy Hill for a while now. They have gotten "better," but they've not reached that PCC type powerhouse level relative to their classification. Although they did win the state championship a few years back.

Please note, I'm not defending "recruiting" with any of these schools. But I do wonder how much of it actually exists as many suggest for the smaller schools, specifically. It sucks for schools that lose quality athletes, but I also believe that there's many examples of people just choosing to send their kids to school elsewhere. Serra Catholic is an extremely small school. They're a block away from McKeesport. They aren't far from Jeannette. They are close Clairton. Across the river and about 15 mins from West Mifflin. Still not overly far from the east part of Pittsburgh like Penn Hills, Wilkinsburg, etc. (probably encroaching more on PCC territory here though). I guess my point is that if you were a parent in those other districts, where would you choose to send your kid to school if you had the means to make that choice?

I almost went to GCC. My cousin played baseball there. GCC often pulled kids from the Mon Valley which was the area where I grew up. But they also pulled kids from the Latrobe, Indiana, and surrounding D6 schools about 40-50 mins from Greensburg. I specifically recall while I was in high school that GCC had a player from Monessen and Charleroi on their roster. Both were good players. But one of those two attended catholic school most of his life, so I'm not sure him going to GCC was ever a shock. The other left Charleroi after his sophomore year. Certainly a bummer for both schools, but I can't dispute parents wanting to place their kids in a private school over Monessen or Charleroi. I am not saying that recruiting doesn't happen, but I think there are many examples of parents wanting to get their kids away from some rougher crowds in the high schools they would go to.

My dad grew up in Pittsburgh. His house sat on the border of Shaler and Perry High School. His neighbors went to Shaler. His parents opted to send him and his siblings to North Catholic. Probably a logical choice if you can make it. Again, not defending recruiting if and when it happens. But I think there are many examples where some of these private schools aren't just looking to be athletic factories and they simply happen to be good landing spots for parents from nearby areas to send their kids if it could be a negative experience in that particular high school.

[IUP24]

LOLOL NA does not have a "big leafy campus." Its a giant concrete and asphalt complex along Route 19 in behind shopping centers and car dealerships. It looks a lot more wooded from Google Maps aerial view but its on the brow of a hill. Most of the complex is sports fields and parking lots.

Played a couple playoff baseball games at NA in high school. It's impressive.