OT: D1

[IUP24]

Well, Florida State won every game they played, so apparently the regular season didn't matter for them. They basically were kept home by the dreaded "eye test." They beat a ranked team playing a third-string true freshman QB. Oregon lost to Washington twice, but who at this point is to say that they're not in the category of some of the playoff teams? Why is Ohio State's loss to Michigan apparently worse than Alabama's loss to Georgia? I certainly don't think a 12-team playoff is going to ruin D1 football as we know it. And maybe we'll get to watch someone else other than the usual football factory suspects play for a championship once in a while.

We normally agree, but I have a far different opinion on this topic.

People say they see too much of those football factories. Every one of those teams will be in the playoff every year now. You’re going to see more of them, not less. The Group of 5 representative will be a sacrificial lamb. Not sure anyone can disagree with that.

In the 12 team format, little TCU wouldn’t have made the run to the title. The chances one of those non-football factories actually plays for a championship is lesser now than before. In the scenario where a team like TCU gets into the playoff, they probably aren’t going on a run where they beat Alabama, Ohio State, and Georgia in consecutive weeks to reach the national title where they have to play Michigan or Clemson. Somebody would beat TCU before getting to the final game.

I never liked the creation of the playoff. I felt it widened the gap between the football factories and the non-football factories. It also devalued anything else in the postseason outside of the College Football Playoff. If this year was the old BCS, Michigan and Washington would’ve played for the BCS National Championship, and not one person could debate that. With 3 unbeatens, the two I mentioned would have had better resumes than the Noles. Nobody would’ve felt sorry for Ohio State and their fans. Instead, Ohio State would have the exciting opportunity to cap off a great year in the Rose Bowl. Now going to Pasadena or Glendale for a NY6 bowl is seen as an unjust consolation prize.

And to be fair, this is the only year where we’ve seen this many seemingly deserving teams at this stage. But I think people way too quickly forget how many of these college football playoff games have been grossly non-competitive. Most have not been one possession games. Many have been highly lopsided. I just don’t think at this level where the talent is so high that there are 12 teams who can actually go on a run and win a championship. It’s been proven most years that there aren’t even 4.

[Ship69]

We normally agree, but I have a far different opinion on this topic.

People say they see too much of those football factories. Every one of those teams will be in the playoff every year now. You’re going to see more of them, not less. The Group of 5 representative will be a sacrificial lamb. Not sure anyone can disagree with that.

In the 12 team format, little TCU wouldn’t have made the run to the title. The chances one of those non-football factories actually plays for a championship is lesser now than before. In the scenario where a team like TCU gets into the playoff, they probably aren’t going on a run where they beat Alabama, Ohio State, and Georgia in consecutive weeks to reach the national title where they have to play Michigan or Clemson. Somebody would beat TCU before getting to the final game.

I never liked the creation of the playoff. I felt it widened the gap between the football factories and the non-football factories. It also devalued anything else in the postseason outside of the College Football Playoff. If this year was the old BCS, Michigan and Washington would’ve played for the BCS National Championship, and not one person could debate that. With 3 unbeatens, the two I mentioned would have had better resumes than the Noles. Nobody would’ve felt sorry for Ohio State and their fans. Instead, Ohio State would have the exciting opportunity to cap off a great year in the Rose Bowl. Now going to Pasadena or Glendale for a NY6 bowl is seen as an unjust consolation prize.

And to be fair, this is the only year where we’ve seen this many seemingly deserving teams at this stage. But I think people way too quickly forget how many of these college football playoff games have been grossly non-competitive. Most have not been one possession games. Many have been highly lopsided. I just don’t think at this level where the talent is so high that there are 12 teams who can actually go on a run and win a championship. It’s been proven most years that there aren’t even 4.

TCU hardly made a run. They upset Michigan and were handed an epic thumping by Georgia in the title game. The true title game was Ohio State-Georgia. If you're going to have a playoff, you can't limit it to four teams. I'd be fine with not having a playoff, but that horse has long left the barn. Every other division in college football decides it championship on the field. There is no good reason for D1 not to do the same.

[IUP24]

TCU hardly made a run. They upset Michigan and were handed an epic thumping by Georgia in the title game. The true title game was Ohio State-Georgia. If you're going to have a playoff, you can't limit it to four teams. I'd be fine with not having a playoff, but that horse has long left the barn. Every other division in college football decides it championship on the field. There is no good reason for D1 not to do the same.

You just proved my point. Your words were "and maybe we'll get to watch someone else other than the usual football factory suspects play for a championship once in a while." In the 4-team playoff, all that those "someone else" teams had to do was win one game. Those teams are never going beat a MIchigan like team in 3 consecutive weeks to reach the title game. In the 4-team format, they could do exactly what your hope is.

Certainly not to that extreme, but more of the CFP games have been closer to TCU-Georgia (non-competitive or blowouts) than they have been to Ohio State-Georgia (game on a razor's edge coming down to a couple plays).

Other than lining the pockets of the networks and universities, what specifically does creating a 12 team playoff actually accomplish? Because for teams 5-12, and this true every single season, they all had the opportunity to win the games necessary to be in the 4 team field during the season and they failed. The exception to that is this year, but I'm not willing to overhaul an entire format because of one outlier.

[Fightingscot82]

I just don't know what we're asking for with this expanded playoff. Consider what the bracket would look like, who would get in, where they would be seeded, etc.

Oregon had two shots to beat Washington and play their way in. They failed both times. What's the reward for Washington in that situation? To likely play a 3rd game against Oregon that they could lose? Almost impossible to beat a great team 3 times in a year.

Penn State would get in. Their resume is that they beat Iowa. They had the opportunity to play their way in and prove who they were against Ohio State and Michigan. They lost both games.

Same for Ohio State. The Michigan-Ohio State game WAS a playoff game. What reward is it for Michigan for winning if you grant OSU a rematch on a neutral field which the Buckeyes probably win?

The SEC title game WAS a playoff game.

These conversations are held, and ultimately settled, during a 12-game regular and conference championship weekend. Games are supposed to matter. The regular season is supposed to matter. Winning your conference is supposed to matter. The more and more we clamor for expanding the playoff because we want to make sure everybody who looked good should get in, the more we devalue what is supposed to be very meaningful and unique to college football.

Which is why automatic bids to conference champions has to be a major factor of the expanded playoff. Screw this arbitrary "best 12 teams" stuff. All that is just a purer form of those "well X beat Y who beat Z who beat A, therefore X is national champion" BS.

[Fightingscot82]

We normally agree, but I have a far different opinion on this topic.

People say they see too much of those football factories. Every one of those teams will be in the playoff every year now. You’re going to see more of them, not less. The Group of 5 representative will be a sacrificial lamb. Not sure anyone can disagree with that.

In the 12 team format, little TCU wouldn’t have made the run to the title. The chances one of those non-football factories actually plays for a championship is lesser now than before. In the scenario where a team like TCU gets into the playoff, they probably aren’t going on a run where they beat Alabama, Ohio State, and Georgia in consecutive weeks to reach the national title where they have to play Michigan or Clemson. Somebody would beat TCU before getting to the final game.

I never liked the creation of the playoff. I felt it widened the gap between the football factories and the non-football factories. It also devalued anything else in the postseason outside of the College Football Playoff. If this year was the old BCS, Michigan and Washington would’ve played for the BCS National Championship, and not one person could debate that. With 3 unbeatens, the two I mentioned would have had better resumes than the Noles. Nobody would’ve felt sorry for Ohio State and their fans. Instead, Ohio State would have the exciting opportunity to cap off a great year in the Rose Bowl. Now going to Pasadena or Glendale for a NY6 bowl is seen as an unjust consolation prize.

And to be fair, this is the only year where we’ve seen this many seemingly deserving teams at this stage. But I think people way too quickly forget how many of these college football playoff games have been grossly non-competitive. Most have not been one possession games. Many have been highly lopsided. I just don’t think at this level where the talent is so high that there are 12 teams who can actually go on a run and win a championship. It’s been proven most years that there aren’t even 4.

The full playoff with conference champion auto-bid format will take a few years to adjust to - but should even the playing field for some of the 2nd and 3rd tier programs and conferences. Its much easier for a TCU to recruit when they have a chance for guaranteed access to the championship playoff than recruiting on "well if we have a perfect year, maybe we'll get an invite". Because even though we're past the BCS, we've somehow now left out an unbeaten P5 conference champion. Its antithetical to every other level of football and every other NCAA sport at any level.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

If FSU wins that game 36-6 they are in the playoff and the SEC probably gets left out of the playoff. I don't think it's a referendum on the ACC.

Ultimately I think that is correct. FSU failed the eye test against Louisville and it cost them big time.

[IUP24]

The full playoff with conference champion auto-bid format will take a few years to adjust to - but should even the playing field for some of the 2nd and 3rd tier programs and conferences. Its much easier for a TCU to recruit when they have a chance for guaranteed access to the championship playoff than recruiting on "well if we have a perfect year, maybe we'll get an invite". Because even though we're past the BCS, we've somehow now left out an unbeaten P5 conference champion. Its antithetical to every other level of football and every other NCAA sport at any level.

Everybody said the same thing about NIL. And all NIL has done was prop up the dormant historical programs who now have the money to buy recruits and advantageously use the transfer portal as free agency (Texas, Florida State, USC - although hasn’t worked out yet in this sense, etc.), while seemingly treating 2nd and 3rd tier programs like feeder systems for the elites. It hasn’t exactly impacted anything in terms of helping the little guy. I can agree it’s created more competitive balance, but it’s done that amongst a small minority of schools who are otherwise rotating at the top anyways. Clemson takes a big step back, but Texas immediately enters the conversation. Rinse and repeat. You aren’t changing who is going to win championships at this level. Expand the playoff to 64 teams. Until NIL, the transfer portal, and other factors incorporating both topics are fixed, you are not going to have a system where those 2nd and 3rd tier teams can win a national championship in FBS football.

And is tacking 4 extra games onto the season good for the players? Because I thought that’s what everybody wanted.. What’s best for the players. Guys with NFL futures will and should opt out.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Everybody said the same thing about NIL. And all NIL has done was prop up the dormant historical programs who now have the money to buy recruits and advantageously use the transfer portal as free agency (Texas, Florida State, USC - although hasn’t worked out yet in this sense, etc.), while seemingly treating 2nd and 3rd tier programs like feeder systems for the elites. It hasn’t exactly impacted anything in terms of helping the little guy. I can agree it’s created more competitive balance, but it’s done that amongst a small minority of schools who are otherwise rotating at the top anyways. Clemson takes a big step back, but Texas immediately enters the conversation. Rinse and repeat. You aren’t changing who is going to win championships at this level. Expand the playoff to 64 teams. Until NIL, the transfer portal, and other factors incorporating both topics are fixed, you are not going to have a system where those 2nd and 3rd tier teams can win a national championship in FBS football.

And is tacking 4 extra games onto the season good for the players? Because I thought that’s what everybody wanted.. What’s best for the players. Guys with NFL futures will and should opt out.

When it's all said and done ... behind closed doors ... nobody gives a blank about the players.

[Ship69]

You just proved my point. Your words were "and maybe we'll get to watch someone else other than the usual football factory suspects play for a championship once in a while." In the 4-team playoff, all that those "someone else" teams had to do was win one game. Those teams are never going beat a MIchigan like team in 3 consecutive weeks to reach the title game. In the 4-team format, they could do exactly what your hope is.

Certainly not to that extreme, but more of the CFP games have been closer to TCU-Georgia (non-competitive or blowouts) than they have been to Ohio State-Georgia (game on a razor's edge coming down to a couple plays).

Other than lining the pockets of the networks and universities, what specifically does creating a 12 team playoff actually accomplish? Because for teams 5-12, and this true every single season, they all had the opportunity to win the games necessary to be in the 4 team field during the season and they failed. The exception to that is this year, but I'm not willing to overhaul an entire format because of one outlier.

Every year is different. You don't know who is going to beat whom in a given year. TCU lucked out last year in facing Harbag and his usually clueless postseason preparation. Either OSU or Georgia would have smoked TCU in a first-round game. Your whole "every game matters scenario" has just been shattered by the Florida State scenario. The current system has also encouraged major teams to go lighter and lighter on their OOC schedules since there's no reason to play anyone good outside your league if 1 or 2 losses keeps you out of the playoff. A scenario such as we've just had in D2 Region One with a two-loss Kutztown team winning the region is almost unimaginable.

Obviously your record doesn't matter if your QB gets hurt or you fail whatever the perceived eye test is for that season. Ohio State was ranked ahead of Alabama and had a one-score loss to an unbeaten Michigan team. Georgia nearly ran through two unbeaten seasons in a league generally regarded as the toughest, was top-ranked most of the season, and lost by three to Alabama (in a championship game, not part of the regular season) and is completely out of the playoff. Oregon lost twice by three points to unbeaten Washington in two of the best games played this season. Why is that worse than Alabama's loss to Texas or that of Texas to Oklahoma, which didn't even reach the Big 12 title game. With lucrative TV contracts at several of the conferences and NIL in place, it's going to be harder for the 4-5 schools that have dominated the sport in recent years to stockpile players.

A 12-team playoff wouldn't always be a problem solver, but the current system is a farce.

[IUP24]

When it's all said and done ... behind closed doors ... nobody gives a blank about the players.

Fully aware.

But everybody everywhere is talking out of both sides of their mouth at this point. National media, messages boards, Twitter, etc. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say the portal and NIL has ruined college football, when the machine (media, fans, etc.) is what ultimately created both of those things. And you can’t think that expanding the playoff will increase the chance for a team to win a title and also ignore how what we clamored for (NIL and player movement) will never allow that to happen. And you also can’t say you want what’s best for the players and then believe that adding four more games potentially to their season where they can get injured is the best thing for them because you want to see some middle of the road P5 team who had a good year get boat raced in the 2nd round. This is what I’ve seen everywhere all weekend.

Strictly speaking from a football only standpoint, I never believed they should have created the playoff in the first place. I actually think it hurt the competitive balance of football and devalued all other bowls which teams should have been proud to have reached because they had a fantastic season.

[Fightingscot82]

Everybody said the same thing about NIL. And all NIL has done was prop up the dormant historical programs who now have the money to buy recruits and advantageously use the transfer portal as free agency (Texas, Florida State, USC - although hasn’t worked out yet in this sense, etc.), while seemingly treating 2nd and 3rd tier programs like feeder systems for the elites. It hasn’t exactly impacted anything in terms of helping the little guy. I can agree it’s created more competitive balance, but it’s done that amongst a small minority of schools who are otherwise rotating at the top anyways. Clemson takes a big step back, but Texas immediately enters the conversation. Rinse and repeat. You aren’t changing who is going to win championships at this level. Expand the playoff to 64 teams. Until NIL, the transfer portal, and other factors incorporating both topics are fixed, you are not going to have a system where those 2nd and 3rd tier teams can win a national championship in FBS football.

And is tacking 4 extra games onto the season good for the players? Because I thought that’s what everybody wanted.. What’s best for the players. Guys with NFL futures will and should opt out.

This is only Season #2 of NIL and really the only full season with it. Give it some time. You get an upstart program in a big metro (like Tulane) and it should be interesting what happens. If anything.

[IUP24]

Every year is different. You don't know who is going to beat whom in a given year. TCU lucked out last year in facing Harbag and his usually clueless postseason preparation. Either OSU or Georgia would have smoked TCU in a first-round game. Your whole "every game matters scenario" has just been shattered by the Florida State scenario. The current system has also encouraged major teams to go lighter and lighter on their OOC schedules since there's no reason to play anyone good outside your league if 1 or 2 losses keeps you out of the playoff. A scenario such as we've just had in D2 Region One with a two-loss Kutztown team winning the region is almost unimaginable.

Obviously your record doesn't matter if your QB gets hurt or you fail whatever the perceived eye test is for that season. Ohio State was ranked ahead of Alabama and had a one-score loss to an unbeaten Michigan team. Georgia nearly ran through two unbeaten seasons in a league generally regarded as the toughest, was top-ranked most of the season, and lost by three to Alabama (in a championship game, not part of the regular season) and is completely out of the playoff. Oregon lost twice by three points to unbeaten Washington in two of the best games played this season. Why is that worse than Alabama's loss to Texas or that of Texas to Oklahoma, which didn't even reach the Big 12 title game. With lucrative TV contracts at several of the conferences and NIL in place, it's going to be harder for the 4-5 schools that have dominated the sport in recent years to stockpile players.

A 12-team playoff wouldn't always be a problem solver, but the current system is a farce.

Florida State being left out is what it is. I won my bet for them NOT to make it on Draft Kings. But I was hoping they would get in. This was an unprecedented and unfortunate situation on a lot of levels. In the old BCS system, there were scenarios where more than two undefeated teams existed. And the computers used a formula to objectively rank the teams before the final selection process. As I mentioned, in that format, Washington and Michigan would’ve gotten in with minimal arguments.

I generally believe things are relative, but I don’t believe D2 to D1 is comparable in this case. Different scholarship maximums. Each school fundraising and paying for different equivalencies. It’s not the same in the sense where every D1 school has 85 scholarships.

You also aren’t recognizing that while these mega tv deals may be giving more teams access to more money, the elitest of the elite are getting the same chunk given to them as well. Nothing is changing. I’m also not entirely sure that this encourages teams to schedule tougher, especially as conferences expand. It’ll just be about winning as many games as you possibly can. And teams will schedule lesser weights in an effort to never lose out of conference.

Again, I’m not disagreeing that you can create more competition. But you’re creating more competition amongst a small number of schools who are of that ilk already. This isn’t suddenly going to pave the way for 80-90% of FBS to have an opportunity to be national players. I think that’s where you and I ultimately disagree.

[Ship69]

Fully aware.

But everybody everywhere is talking out of both sides of their mouth at this point. National media, messages boards, Twitter, etc. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say the portal and NIL has ruined college football, when the machine (media, fans, etc.) is what ultimately created both of those things. And you can’t think that expanding the playoff will increase the chance for a team to win a title and also ignore how what we clamored for (NIL and player movement) will never allow that to happen. And you also can’t say you want what’s best for the players and then believe that adding four more games potentially to their season where they can get injured is the best thing for them because you want to see some middle of the road P5 team who had a good year get boat raced in the 2nd round. This is what I’ve seen everywhere all weekend.

Strictly speaking from a football only standpoint, I never believed they should have created the playoff in the first place. I actually think it hurt the competitive balance of football and devalued all other bowls which teams should have been proud to have reached because they had a fantastic season.

The Big Ten hasn't had true competitive balance since probably the '70s. There have been a few temporary resurgences at Iowa, Wisconsin, Purdue, etc., but Ohio State and Michigan have dominated the league. The balance started to go south when more and more games were televised. National reporters latched on to the Bo-Woody rivalry at Michigan and Ohio State, and that became the story in the Big Ten. Recruiting shot up at those schools while it went through a fallow period in much of the rest of the league, and those two teams basically ran roughshod over everybody else. That they consistently lost the Rose Bowl did not seem to change the narrative. Ohio State and Michigan were the only teams to represent the B1G in the Rose Bowl in the '70s, and they won exactly one Rose Bowl the entire decade. Hard as it is to believe now, the B1G had dominated the Rose Bowl from the late '40s into the mid '60s when the league was better balanced. When I was a kid, it was considered a disgrace for a Big Ten team to lose the Rose Bowl. Now they shout hallelujah when they win something.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Ohio State starting QB has entered portal and will skip bowl game.

[Ship69]

Florida State being left out is what it is. I won my bet for them NOT to make it on Draft Kings. But I was hoping they would get in. This was an unprecedented and unfortunate situation on a lot of levels. In the old BCS system, there were scenarios where more than two undefeated teams existed. And the computers used a formula to objectively rank the teams before the final selection process. As I mentioned, in that format, Washington and Michigan would’ve gotten in with minimal arguments.

I generally believe things are relative, but I don’t believe D2 to D1 is comparable in this case. Different scholarship maximums. Each school fundraising and paying for different equivalencies. It’s not the same in the sense where every D1 school has 85 scholarships.

You also aren’t recognizing that while these mega tv deals may be giving more teams access to more money, the elitest of the elite are getting the same chunk given to them as well. Nothing is changing. I’m also not entirely sure that this encourages teams to schedule tougher, especially as conferences expand. It’ll just be about winning as many games as you possibly can. And teams will schedule lesser weights in an effort to never lose out of conference.

Again, I’m not disagreeing that you can create more competition. But you’re creating more competition amongst a small number of schools who are of that ilk already. This isn’t suddenly going to pave the way for 80-90% of FBS to have an opportunity to be national players. I think that’s where you and I ultimately disagree.

I think NIL will make quite a difference in the long run. There are enough schools with athletic money to pay a pretty decent sum for players. The guys sitting on the bench at the big schools are going to be more likely to jump if they're not playing right away. Texas and Oklahoma going into the SEC, and the four West Coast schools going into the B1G means some of these schools aren't likely to have the gaudy records they've gotten used to. And players are going to realize the road to the playoffs doesn't always have to run through the same half-dozen schools.