THE IUP Football Thread

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Bounce back in terms of making the playoffs, that’s a possibility. Bounce back in terms of national prominence and competing for more than a regional title…I think that’s an island that looks further and further away each year.

It's always been. The goal in SR1 is to win the Regional. We know what happens beyond that point. They call the SR1 champ the 'bye week' in the Final Four for a well-documented reason.


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[EyeoftheHawk]

It's always been. The goal in SR1 is to win the Regional. We know what happens beyond that point. They call the SR1 champ the 'bye week' in the Final Four for a well-documented reason.


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IUP had a legitimate shot as recently as 2012, and probably to a lesser extent, 2017. If Max Redfield doesn’t get hurt in the regional championship, I think they had a very real shot of beating West Florida in the semi-finals. There was a gap then, but it’s not the gap we’re seeing now a decade removed from losing to Winston Salem State in the semi-finals on the five yard line. Shepherd got there in 2015. True that an SR 1 champion hasn’t happened, but it hasn’t always been the case that teams from the region essentially had no shot. That’s what I mean by “How did we get here?”

The other schools and conferences invested. SR1 schools haven’t, and we’re seeing the results. Yesterday Shepherd, arguably the best team in SR1 the last decade, was the only SR1 team to play outside the region and they got walloped by the #4 seed in that region 63-17. It was the biggest blowout of the day.

[IUPNation]

IUP had a legitimate shot as recently as 2012, and probably to a lesser extent, 2017. If Max Redfield doesn’t get hurt in the regional championship, I think they had a very real shot of beating West Florida in the semi-finals. There was a gap then, but it’s not the gap we’re seeing now a decade remove from losing to Winston Salem State in the semi-finals on the five yard line. Shepherd got there in 2015. True that an SR 1 champion hasn’t happened, but it hasn’t always been the case that teams from the region essentially had no shot. That’s what I mean by “How did we get here?”

The other schools and conferences invested. SR1 schools haven’t, and we’re seeing the results. Yesterday Shepherd, arguably the best team in SR1 the last decade, was the only SR1 team to play outside the region and they got walloped by the #4 seed in that region 63-17. It was the biggest blowout of the day.

That showed that the Pee Sack was really down across the board this year. I’m not going to be shocked if Tiffin clocks Slimey.

[Ship69]

IUP had a legitimate shot as recently as 2012, and probably to a lesser extent, 2017. If Max Redfield doesn’t get hurt in the regional championship, I think they had a very real shot of beating West Florida in the semi-finals. There was a gap then, but it’s not the gap we’re seeing now a decade removed from losing to Winston Salem State in the semi-finals on the five yard line. Shepherd got there in 2015. True that an SR 1 champion hasn’t happened, but it hasn’t always been the case that teams from the region essentially had no shot. That’s what I mean by “How did we get here?”

The other schools and conferences invested. SR1 schools haven’t, and we’re seeing the results. Yesterday Shepherd, arguably the best team in SR1 the last decade, was the only SR1 team to play outside the region and they got walloped by the #4 seed in that region 63-17. It was the biggest blowout of the day.

Well according to some posts I've seen on this board, some of the teams in our conference and our region are close to 30 scholarships, which isn't terribly far from the D2 limit of 36. If that's true, they don't seem to be getting much bang for their buck. I do think our relatively small geographic area is saturated with more D2 teams than some, which tends to dilute the talent in our recruiting area. And with high school enrollments dropping drastically in many areas of Pa., our state certainly doesn't have the amount of high-end prospects it used to. I think PSAC coaches are going to have to start recruiting farther afield. We'll see what happens.

[EyeoftheHawk]

Well according to some posts I've seen on this board, some of the teams in our conference and our region are close to 30 scholarships, which isn't terribly far from the D2 limit of 36. If that's true, they don't seem to be getting much bang for their buck. I do think our relatively small geographic area is saturated with more D2 teams than some, which tends to dilute the talent in our recruiting area. And with high school enrollments dropping drastically in many areas of Pa., our state certainly doesn't have the amount of high-end prospects it used to. I think PSAC coaches are going to have to start recruiting farther afield. We'll see what happens.

The Northern Sun Conference isn’t all that different than the PSAC in terms of competition for recruits, but they consistently put out superior football programs comparatively. The conference isn’t quite as big as the PSAC, but they also have fewer in state kids to pick from. Looking at rosters for many of those teams though and they do bring in quite a few kids from other states. Also, while it may not seem like it, there is a pretty big difference between 30 (I’m not sure anyone in the PSAC has that) and 36 scholarships. As you say though, it’s likely the talent of a full ride player in the PSAC may not be equal to that of one in other areas of the country.

[Ship69]

The Northern Sun Conference isn’t all that different than the PSAC in terms of competition for recruits, but they consistently put out superior football programs comparatively. The conference isn’t quite as big as the PSAC, but they also have fewer in state kids to pick from. Looking at rosters for many of those teams though and they do bring in quite a few kids from other states. Also, while it may not seem like it, there is a pretty big difference between 30 (I’m not sure anyone in the PSAC has that) and 36 scholarships. As you say though, it’s likely the talent of a full ride player in the PSAC may not be equal to that of one in other areas of the country.

I'm not all that convinced that 36 over 30 would be that great an advantage. It would certainly be nice to have 30 and find out. I claim no knowledge of how many scholarships PSAC teams actually have. Some posters on these boards have hinted there are teams with close to 30. Then you hear that some teams don't have many scholarships, but have other means (meal plans etc.) of lowering costs for students. So I really don't know what to believe. From what I see of the size of many D2 schools I doubt the majority of them have anything like 36 scholarships. Obviously there are a few that do have that kind of support and that tends to show up in the playoffs.

[Fightingscot82]

The Northern Sun Conference isn’t all that different than the PSAC in terms of competition for recruits, but they consistently put out superior football programs comparatively. The conference isn’t quite as big as the PSAC, but they also have fewer in state kids to pick from. Looking at rosters for many of those teams though and they do bring in quite a few kids from other states. Also, while it may not seem like it, there is a pretty big difference between 30 (I’m not sure anyone in the PSAC has that) and 36 scholarships. As you say though, it’s likely the talent of a full ride player in the PSAC may not be equal to that of one in other areas of the country.

There are so many factors at play. Scholarship support is one thing. Another you've also mentioned is the number of D2 schools in the region. Sure, population is lower but there are also fewer coaches in the recruiting mix. Related to number of schools is the number of schools regardless of classification around here. A very good player around here could be considering a walk-on offer from Akron plus scholarship offers from RMU, IUP, and Mt Union. Once a kid from Minnesota realizes he's not playing for PJ Fleck, there's not much left who may be recruiting him. Some FCS schools like Northern Iowa but everything else is D2. Their leftovers and overlooked kids generally are much better than what we've got. We've got a lot of schools from all levels fishing in our water.

The attitude in Pennsylvania is anything below FBS (and generally P5) is JV and generally all the same. 99.9% of people don't understand what constitutes the difference in divisions - even high school coaches. Most think its about relegation like soccer. So if a guy is settling for something sub-FBS they're going to seriously consider FCS through D3 offers. That private D3 school may throw the 50% off academic scholarship at Johnny Football putting the price close to IUP's base tuition. If Johnny isn't playing Ohio State and Alabama, might as well settle for St Vincent and Clarion.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I'm not all that convinced that 36 over 30 would be that great an advantage. It would certainly be nice to have 30 and find out. I claim no knowledge of how many scholarships PSAC teams actually have. Some posters on these boards have hinted there are teams with close to 30. Then you hear that some teams don't have many scholarships, but have other means (meal plans etc.) of lowering costs for students. So I really don't know what to believe. From what I see of the size of many D2 schools I doubt the majority of them have anything like 36 scholarships. Obviously there are a few that do have that kind of support and that tends to show up in the playoffs.

You'd be amazed what an extra (6) equivalencies can accomplish. That can turn them into a quality (12) half rides. You can get pretty good players on half scholarships. That would really help depth. Or, you could obviously take (6) more full ride guys.

I think our best programs are more in the 22-24 range than the 30 level.

So, when you're already limited, you can't swing and miss too often.

[WarriorVoice]

The Northern Sun Conference isn’t all that different than the PSAC in terms of competition for recruits, but they consistently put out superior football programs comparatively. The conference isn’t quite as big as the PSAC, but they also have fewer in state kids to pick from. Looking at rosters for many of those teams though and they do bring in quite a few kids from other states. Also, while it may not seem like it, there is a pretty big difference between 30 (I’m not sure anyone in the PSAC has that) and 36 scholarships. As you say though, it’s likely the talent of a full ride player in the PSAC may not be equal to that of one in other areas of the country.

How many FBS, FCS, DII and DIII programs does the Northern Sun Conference have to compete with for recruits? I'm breaking this down by state, and I realize there are NSC schools outside Minnesota... In PA, there are 11 FBS or FCS schools that offer Football. Minnesota has 2...In PA there are 16 DII Programs, in Minnesota there are 7...There are 28 D III programs that play football in PA...Minnesota has 14...Not sure the field is level...

[EyeoftheHawk]

The attitude in Pennsylvania is anything below FBS (and generally P5) is JV and generally all the same. 99.9% of people don't understand what constitutes the difference in divisions - even high school coaches. Most think its about relegation like soccer. So if a guy is settling for something sub-FBS they're going to seriously consider FCS through D3 offers. That private D3 school may throw the 50% off academic scholarship at Johnny Football putting the price close to IUP's base tuition. If Johnny isn't playing Ohio State and Alabama, might as well settle for St Vincent and Clarion.

I know a high school QB in Minnesota that very quickly (before his senior year started this season) chose a DII school in the Northern Sun conference despite getting a lot of love from FCS teams in the area, and we know the upper Midwest is more or less the hot bet for FCS football so these were “the biggies.” That makes me think about your point about regional perception and how it’s related to the choices kids make. The kid knows he’ll likely be the starter within two years and playing for a top-level DII school that can compete for a championship. That was more attractive to him than an FCS opportunity. A kid in Pennsylvania probably doesn’t make the same choice.

I haven’t run the numbers regarding the number of other schools competing for players in that region, but it might be more similar than y’all think. There are really good FCS schools there, a bunch of DII’s, and DIII football is also big in the region. When you combine the fewer number of overall players with the abundance of opportunities, I still think it’s a fair comparison. I recognize my argument is more anecdotal than science.

For what it’s worth, I looked at Bemidji State’s roster and found that they have 52 players that are from states other than Minnesota. For comparison’s sake, here are the out-of-state player numbers for a few teams in the PSAC West:

IUP: 13
Slippery Rock: 30
California: 6
Edinboro: 43 (surprising)

I recognize that geography has something to do with it but the expense of going out of state to find quality players is a big obstacle. I’m not convinced most state PSAC schools can afford to do that. I’m not sure it really means anything because you could bring in 100 non scholarship kids if they want to pay tuition, but I thought it was an interesting exercise. There are parts of all of these arguments and counter arguments that add up to why PSAC schools or even SR1 has trouble competing nationally. It would be a great graduate student study for someone to undertake.

[Ship69]

You'd be amazed what an extra (6) equivalencies can accomplish. That can turn them into a quality (12) half rides. You can get pretty good players on half scholarships. That would really help depth. Or, you could obviously take (6) more full ride guys.

I think our best programs are more in the 22-24 range than the 30 level.

So, when you're already limited, you can't swing and miss too often.

Well, as I said, I'd like to have 30 and find out. So you're saying the Erie schools and another couple I'd previously heard might be in the high 20s or so aren't there?

As I've said before, I'm not sure there shouldn't be another Division between D2 and D3 with a limit of something in the neighborhood of 20 schollies. I think a lot of schools would be competitive at that level. The current leap from 0 at Division III to 36 at D2 is a step too far for a lot of schools.

[Fightingscot82]

I know a high school QB in Minnesota that very quickly (before his senior year started this season) chose a DII school in the Northern Sun conference despite getting a lot of love from FCS teams in the area, and we know the upper Midwest is more or less the hot bet for FCS football so these were “the biggies.” That makes me think about your point about regional perception and how it’s related to the choices kids make. The kid knows he’ll likely be the starter within two years and playing for a top-level DII school that can compete for a championship. That was more attractive to him than an FCS opportunity. A kid in Pennsylvania probably doesn’t make the same choice.

I haven’t run the numbers regarding the number of other schools competing for players in that region, but it might be more similar than y’all think. There are really good FCS schools there, a bunch of DII’s, and DIII football is also big in the region. When you combine the fewer number of overall players with the abundance of opportunities, I still think it’s a fair comparison. I recognize my argument is more anecdotal than science.

For what it’s worth, I looked at Bemidji State’s roster and found that they have 52 players that are from states other than Minnesota. For comparison’s sake, here are the out-of-state player numbers for a few teams in the PSAC West:

IUP: 13
Slippery Rock: 30
California: 6
Edinboro: 43 (surprising)

I recognize that geography has something to do with it but the expense of going out of state to find quality players is a big obstacle. I’m not convinced most state PSAC schools can afford to do that. I’m not sure it really means anything because you could bring in 100 non scholarship kids if they want to pay tuition, but I thought it was an interesting exercise. There are parts of all of these arguments and counter arguments that add up to why PSAC schools or even SR1 has trouble competing nationally. It would be a great graduate student study for someone to undertake.

SRU can. They have a tuition model that out of state students with a 3.0 high school or college transfer GPA are charged $4k less as long as they maintain a 2.5 SRU GPA. There is also a bill in Harrisburg that will allow PASSHE schools to charge in state tuition to students from states bordering PA.

[Fightingscot82]

Well, as I said, I'd like to have 30 and find out. So you're saying the Erie schools and another couple I'd previously heard might be in the high 20s or so aren't there?

As I've said before, I'm not sure there shouldn't be another Division between D2 and D3 with a limit of something in the neighborhood of 20 schollies. I think a lot of schools would be competitive at that level. The current leap from 0 at Division III to 36 at D2 is a step too far for a lot of schools.

The private schools are hovering around 30. IUP is upper 20s, SRU mid 20s, Cal high teens, everyone else around 8 to 12. I think I saw Shepherd was around 20.

[Ship69]

The private schools are hovering around 30. IUP is upper 20s, SRU mid 20s, Cal high teens, everyone else around 8 to 12. I think I saw Shepherd was around 20.

If the private schools are that high, they're sure not getting much out of it. Ship, with the league's lowest-rated offense this season, just beat Gannon for the second year in a row. Eight scholarships would be pretty pathetic for football. A lot of the basketball programs in the conference are at or near that.

[Fightingscot82]

If the private schools are that high, they're sure not getting much out of it. Ship, with the league's lowest-rated offense this season, just beat Gannon for the second year in a row. Eight scholarships would be pretty pathetic for football. A lot of the basketball programs in the conference are at or near that.

That's been my criticism for years. There have been several seasons where at least one of the three was pretty close to 36. None of the three schools are particularly wealthy, so I wonder how often academic discounts are stacked with athletic discounts. Sometimes you can only use one coupon code per order, you know. At the PASSHE schools, if you get an academic scholarship and an athletic scholarship, the university is paid with real money so it costs the university nothing. At a private, nearly all "scholarships" are really a discount from the sticker price. If the football coach offers a half scholarship, I doubt that can be paired with the automatic qualifying half scholarship for good students.