Should Jamestown be accepted into the NSIC?

[Stanger86]

It’s especially true at high schools with University in their name. A la Crookston.

I'm really trying to stay away from going down these rabbit holes that make up roughly 100 of the 126 pages of this thread, but I think comments like this are why some people have the perception that segments of MSU fans think they are too good for Division II. There's an attitude coming through these comments that says you don't think they deserve to be at the same level as mighty Mankato. I think this same attitude is a big reason why the Dakota States moved up to FCS in the first place, and I think we're seeing that attitude seep into Mankato more and more as well.

I am well aware that UM-Crookston is one of the least funded and most poorly run athletic departments in Division II. But for whatever reason, they have chosen to stay at the Division II level because they feel it's what's best for them as a university. Rather than tearing them down because you feel like they don't belong or tearing down that region of the state as a whole, why not look for ways that they can enhance and improve their program standing within Division II?

[zimmy21]

I'm really trying to stay away from going down these rabbit holes that make up roughly 100 of the 126 pages of this thread, but I think comments like this are why some people have the perception that segments of MSU fans think they are too good for Division II. There's an attitude coming through these comments that says you don't think they deserve to be at the same level as mighty Mankato. I think this same attitude is a big reason why the Dakota States moved up to FCS in the first place, and I think we're seeing that attitude seep into Mankato more and more as well.

I am well aware that UM-Crookston is one of the least funded and most poorly run athletic departments in Division II. But for whatever reason, they have chosen to stay at the Division II level because they feel it's what's best for them as a university. Rather than tearing them down because you feel like they don't belong or tearing down that region of the state as a whole, why not look for ways that they can enhance and improve their program standing within Division II?

Hefty assumptions...and you know what assuming does.

If we have to be the realists here then by all means I'll be it. UMC has no business in D2. It has no business being a 4 year school, and I struggle to see the need for the school to exist in general.

MSU in my own opinion belongs at the next level, despite what the vast majority of voices says here. That doesn't mean that I think we are entirely better than every school in the NSIC at everything. I think we have been lackluster in volleyball, and tennis. I think Augie and us belong with the xDSU/UxD schools and we've stinted our own growth

[Stanger86]

If we have to be the realists here then by all means I'll be it. UMC has no business in D2. It has no business being a 4 year school, and I struggle to see the need for the school to exist in general.

To counter, it used to be that no sport at UMC was successful. However, in the last decade or so, a few programs there have shown that success is possible within Division II. So I don't consider them a complete lost cause. It just takes a lot of work.

SMSU used to be one of the worst athletic programs in many sports as well. But over time, the athletic department has found its niches where it can be successful. SMSU is never at the top of the all-sports standings, but I don't remember the last time I've heard someone say we're in over our heads in Division II. I do think that's possible for UMC and Jamestown as well, even if it doesn't result in all-sport dominance at any point. Maybe that's low expectations, but overall I feel like we are an average Division II institution, which is respectable considering a lot of factors.

[SW_Mustang]

MSU doesn't offer DI anything, much like xDSU doesn't offer DI anything. I'd argue no DII program does. Not even GVSU or UWF. DI isn't better by having them - in fact the more financial leeches DI let's in, the worse they get.

Double whammy for MSU because they aren't a flagship and never will be. I wish they were but they aren't - unfortunately meaning they are not peers with the xDSU schools by any conceivable measure.

Same logic in my mind applies to Crookston. We really don't need divisions anymore if we're not going to have any standards - and I'd much rather have Jamestown than Crookston.

[vikingfaithful]

MSU doesn't offer DI anything, much like xDSU doesn't offer DI anything. I'd argue no DII program does. Not even GVSU or UWF. DI isn't better by having them - in fact the more financial leeches DI let's in, the worse they get.

Double whammy for MSU because they aren't a flagship and never will be. I wish they were but they aren't - unfortunately meaning they are not peers with the xDSU schools by any conceivable measure.

Same logic in my mind applies to Crookston. We really don't need divisions anymore if we're not going to have any standards - and I'd much rather have Jamestown than Crookston.

In that regard I fully agree with you, just as I would prefer Morningside, Northwestern IA. or Grand Valley over St. Cloud. I would trade SCSU with UIU- at least the Peacocks have a football team!

[CheapSkate]

If we have to be the realists here then by all means I'll be it. UMC has no business in D2. It has no business being a 4 year school, and I struggle to see the need for the school to exist in general.

+1 for the realist

[CheapSkate]

To counter, it used to be that no sport at UMC was successful. However, in the last decade or so, a few programs there have shown that success is possible within Division II. So I don't consider them a complete lost cause. It just takes a lot of work.

Nope, they ARE a complete lost cause. First off, we are really reaching if 'success' in Division II is merely finishing in the top half of the conference standings. One golf title over 20 years ago is the only conference championship UMC has won as a DII school. Otherwise they have been putrid in all sports. They are so bad that when basketball starts simply *making* the conference tournament people are excited.

And to use baseball as the great hope for the school is a fools errand. Once the coach leaves they will drop again. They have won some games, but still have yet to make the Regional tournament, win the conference or even make the NSIC tournament championship game. So if a couple 20-win baseball campaigns are all the entire athletic department has to show of 'success' in DII ... then shut. the. thing. down.

[SW_Mustang]

In that regard I fully agree with you, just as I would prefer Morningside, Northwestern IA. or Grand Valley over St. Cloud. I would trade SCSU with UIU- at least the Peacocks have a football team!

The irony of MSU fans arguing through gritted teeth against Jamestown joining DII, then ignoring that exact same logic about MSU going DI is not lost on me.

Agreed. I don't want SCSU around either. People can say what they want about the results, but Jamestown is at least committed to having a football team - which is something that can't be said for two NSIC programs.

[SW_Mustang]

Nope, they ARE a complete lost cause. First off, we are really reaching if 'success' in Division II is merely finishing in the top half of the conference standings. One golf title over 20 years ago is the only conference championship UMC has won as a DII school. Otherwise they have been putrid in all sports. They are so bad that when basketball starts simply *making* the conference tournament people are excited.

And to use baseball as the great hope for the school is a fools errand. Once the coach leaves they will drop again. They have won some games, but still have yet to make the Regional tournament, win the conference or even make the NSIC tournament championship game. So if a couple 20-win baseball campaigns are all the entire athletic department has to show of 'success' in DII ... then shut. the. thing. down.

I'm not sure if the baseball comments are in response to me or not - but I am aware that the recent success is thanks to the coaching staff operating in spite of the school and not because of it. And they aren't going to compete with SCSU/MSU/Augie on the baseball front. I was looking at it in a vacuum and giving them the smallest amount of credit where it is due.

I will say that coaching staff has had a great run with player development over the last several years. Not on the same level as CSP or Augie, but definitely in the top half of the NSIC. But again that's because of the coaches and not the school. Once those guys depart, I can't imagine it's going to continue.

[Stanger86]

And to use baseball as the great hope for the school is a fools errand. Once the coach leaves they will drop again. They have won some games, but still have yet to make the Regional tournament, win the conference or even make the NSIC tournament championship game. So if a couple 20-win baseball campaigns are all the entire athletic department has to show of 'success' in DII ... then shut. the. thing. down.

Maybe. Maybe not. years ago, I'm sure people expected the same when Tim Miles left SMSU for North Dakota State. And the first three years, some might say they were proven correct as the Mustangs went from 28 wins in Miles' last year to 21 to 17 to 12. Shut it down? What had SMSU really done in Division II to that point as an entire athletics department? Football was nothing, volleyball hadn't done much yet, baseball and WBB ironically were probably the only programs of note at that point.

[laker]

Nope, they ARE a complete lost cause. First off, we are really reaching if 'success' in Division II is merely finishing in the top half of the conference standings. One golf title over 20 years ago is the only conference championship UMC has won as a DII school. Otherwise they have been putrid in all sports. They are so bad that when basketball starts simply *making* the conference tournament people are excited.

And to use baseball as the great hope for the school is a fools errand. Once the coach leaves they will drop again. They have won some games, but still have yet to make the Regional tournament, win the conference or even make the NSIC tournament championship game. So if a couple 20-win baseball campaigns are all the entire athletic department has to show of 'success' in DII ... then shut. the. thing. down.

Is there any serious talk about D3 and the UMAC like Morris did?

[Purple Mav Man]

I'm really trying to stay away from going down these rabbit holes that make up roughly 100 of the 126 pages of this thread, but I think comments like this are why some people have the perception that segments of MSU fans think they are too good for Division II. There's an attitude coming through these comments that says you don't think they deserve to be at the same level as mighty Mankato. I think this same attitude is a big reason why the Dakota States moved up to FCS in the first place, and I think we're seeing that attitude seep into Mankato more and more as well.

I am well aware that UM-Crookston is one of the least funded and most poorly run athletic departments in Division II. But for whatever reason, they have chosen to stay at the Division II level because they feel it's what's best for them as a university. Rather than tearing them down because you feel like they don't belong or tearing down that region of the state as a whole, why not look for ways that they can enhance and improve their program standing within Division II?

What if the comment had come from a fan of a different school? Would a fan of SMSU who thinks Crookston is out of place be too good for D2? I think your bias and whatever else toward/against MSU shows through often. And it did in this reply.

I’d guess the vast majority of fans on this board think Crookston is out of place. We can all think that if we want. And Crookston can stay in the NSIC/D2 if they want, as you say. Some people want to boot them. I am saying they are a high school (not just athletics-wise) masquerading as a 4-year university. Even the Crookston alum we’re fortunate to have on the board is able to be honest and real about.

[Purple Mav Man]

The irony of MSU fans arguing through gritted teeth against Jamestown joining DII, then ignoring that exact same logic about MSU going DI is not lost on me.

Agreed. I don't want SCSU around either. People can say what they want about the results, but Jamestown is at least committed to having a football team - which is something that can't be said for two NSIC programs.

I am guessing your first part is directed towards me. Jamestown can be D2 all they want. The question is whether they belong in the NSIC? Geographically, of course. No irony, just a misunderstanding.

[Stanger86]

What if the comment had come from a fan of a different school? Would a fan of SMSU who thinks Crookston is out of place be too good for D2? I think your bias and whatever else toward/against MSU shows through often. And it did in this reply.

I’d guess the vast majority of fans on this board think Crookston is out of place. We can all think that if we want. And Crookston can stay in the NSIC/D2 if they want, as you say. Some people want to boot them. I am saying they are a high school (not just athletics-wise) masquerading as a 4-year university. Even the Crookston alum were fortunate to have on the board is able to be honest and real about.

Fair point. It's just felt to me at times (maybe out of place) that multiple MSU fans have done a lot of grumbling over membership ever since joining the NSIC.

[SW_Mustang]

I am guessing your first part is directed towards me. Jamestown can be D2 all they want. The question is whether they belong in the NSIC? Geographically, of course. No irony, just a misunderstanding.

No, actually. I was not responding to you.

But my point is MSU would offer DI the equivalent of what UJ offers DII. The irony is some don't see that and are okay with the former and not the latter given how similar the moves are.

Some could say it's an apples-to-oranges comparison because MSU at least is one of the better DII schools, but their impact on DI will be similar to UJ's impact on DII.

And for the record - I'm not thrilled about UJ joining DII. I'd rather have them than Crookston, but there are 10 other schools I'd rather have than them.