OT: D1

[Fightingscot82]

I think another argument against NDSU moving up is how the P4 conferences are building a wall between them and the G5 conferences. NDSU would have to have an absolutely perfect season with a schedule made years in advance to even be in the conversation about entering the playoff. And hope they're the only G5 school in that situation. Otherwise they're relegated to the Leftovers Bowls, which may be on the decline as ESPN sheds expenses and the playoff diminishes the value of what were second and third tier bowls.

One day we're going to have a 12-0 Boise State and a 12-0 Toledo or UCF and they're going to be left out of the playoff in favor of a 10-2 Clemson or a 9-3 Oklahoma.

[IUPNation]

I think another argument against NDSU moving up is how the P4 conferences are building a wall between them and the G5 conferences. NDSU would have to have an absolutely perfect season with a schedule made years in advance to even be in the conversation about entering the playoff. And hope they're the only G5 school in that situation. Otherwise they're relegated to the Leftovers Bowls, which may be on the decline as ESPN sheds expenses and the playoff diminishes the value of what were second and third tier bowls.

One day we're going to have a 12-0 Boise State and a 12-0 Toledo or UCF and they're going to be left out of the playoff in favor of a 10-2 Clemson or a 9-3 Oklahoma.

This is why there needs to be three tiers in D1.

They could use some of the bowls for the second a third Tier title games.

[Fightingscot82]

This is why there needs to be three tiers in D1.

They could use some of the bowls for the second a third Tier title games.

The division of FBS isn't necessary. It's a construct of the media just like the illusion of Notre Dame. All we need to do is tear down the wall between P4 and G5. Equal access and opportunity.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I think another argument against NDSU moving up is how the P4 conferences are building a wall between them and the G5 conferences. NDSU would have to have an absolutely perfect season with a schedule made years in advance to even be in the conversation about entering the playoff. And hope they're the only G5 school in that situation. Otherwise they're relegated to the Leftovers Bowls, which may be on the decline as ESPN sheds expenses and the playoff diminishes the value of what were second and third tier bowls.

One day we're going to have a 12-0 Boise State and a 12-0 Toledo or UCF and they're going to be left out of the playoff in favor of a 10-2 Clemson or a 9-3 Oklahoma.

That day may arrive next season.

[Chuck Norris]

I see this question a lot. The way I've come to see it is that the fans are willing to trade the chance to be top dawgs for a better regular season, in addition to the greater exposure and media payouts. JMU is a great comparison point, because they were essentially the last east-coast team that could compete with NDSU. Their schedule is now filled with former FCS powers like App State, Georgia Southern, and Marshall, plus one annual game against a P4, including wins the past two years over Virginia and UNC. Would Virginia have even scheduled JMU if they weren't FBS? Unlikely.

NDSU's issue has always been geography. They are a tough sell for administrators who are all about markets. But by virtue of being an FBS team, they would be able to fill their schedule with FBS teams that were formerly their peers, rather than FCS teams that they have mostly surpassed. They would also more easily be able to schedule more P4 matchups, which are really valuable. Taken in full, it's tough to turn down, especially since they've already proven their dominance in FCS. There's nothing more for them to do.

For everyone but the Ivy League and the low level conferences, FCS is college football purgatory. No one aspires to end up there. That isn’t to say it’s not a fine product to watch from a fan’s perspective. Or that what NDSU has done isn’t remarkable. I agree that the schools in the Dakotas and Montana are a tough sell due to geography. But NDSU will end up in FBS at some point. Boise Idaho isn’t exactly an ideally located booming metropolis either.

[IUPNation]

For everyone but the Ivy League and the low level conferences, FCS is college football purgatory. No one aspires to end up there. That isn’t to say it’s not a fine product to watch from a fan’s perspective. Or that what NDSU has done isn’t remarkable. I agree that the schools in the Dakotas and Montana are a tough sell due to geography. But NDSU will end up in FBS at some point. Boise Idaho isn’t exactly an ideally located booming metropolis either.

Idahostan does attract people to move there..mostly right wingers..but the mountains make it appealing. The Dakotastans come off as dreary desolate Hell scapes.

[IUP24]

I think another argument against NDSU moving up is how the P4 conferences are building a wall between them and the G5 conferences. NDSU would have to have an absolutely perfect season with a schedule made years in advance to even be in the conversation about entering the playoff. And hope they're the only G5 school in that situation. Otherwise they're relegated to the Leftovers Bowls, which may be on the decline as ESPN sheds expenses and the playoff diminishes the value of what were second and third tier bowls.

One day we're going to have a 12-0 Boise State and a 12-0 Toledo or UCF and they're going to be left out of the playoff in favor of a 10-2 Clemson or a 9-3 Oklahoma.

I think the bigger picture is the SEC and B1G, along with Notre Dame, are building a wall (with the help of the networks) against the ACC and Big 12. I think people are mostly going to be fine with a single token G5 sacrificial lamb, so long as it is just one G5 team and that G5 is seeded 12th. Everything now is the SEC and the B1G working in cohesion to... 1) Advocate for greater unequal distribution of TV money in the CFP. 2) Advocate for seeding changes that benefits their two leagues only. 3) Advocate for guaranteed at-large bids for their leagues only.

It's 2 leagues, Notre Dame, and then everybody else.

And there are people - a lot of them, and some in this thread - who are okay with that. I'm not. There are years the B1G has won 1 or 2 bowl games like the ACC did this year. There are years the SEC has looked pedestrian in the postseason. Those leagues all get the benefit of the doubt because they have 2-4 power players at the top that skew the perception for their entire league top to bottom. I tend to think that outside of those 2-4 teams at the top of the B1G and SEC, all four P4 leagues are generally pretty well competitive with each other across the entire season from a top to bottom comparison. Others disagree. That's fine. That's an entirely different conversation.

People want an invitational tournament for their viewing pleasure. It's almost like people just don't like watching football. They claim to love the sport. But when the rubber meets the road, they only watch if they are viewing recognizable brands. Those aren't football fans. It's funny to me that for years people advocated for an expanded FBS/1-A tournament that would model the FCS/1-AA, D2, and D3 format. They wanted "everybody to get a shot." They have their expanded field, and now they are not happy because the games are clunkers. If you watch the lower level playoffs, those early round games are littered with blowouts everywhere. But nobody cares - because nobody watches.

[IUP24]

For everyone but the Ivy League and the low level conferences, FCS is college football purgatory. No one aspires to end up there. That isn’t to say it’s not a fine product to watch from a fan’s perspective. Or that what NDSU has done isn’t remarkable. I agree that the schools in the Dakotas and Montana are a tough sell due to geography. But NDSU will end up in FBS at some point. Boise Idaho isn’t exactly an ideally located booming metropolis either.

I don't disagree with IUP Nation regarding a consolidation of FBS and FCS. I don't know what the combined total number of FBS and FCS schools are, but you could effectively create a 3-tiered system. That could also get some of the upper end D2 teams who yearn to move up to reach a more realistic level of elevated football competition.

There are a lot of good FCS schools out west. NDSU, South Dakota State, Montana, Montana State, etc. Even at the D2 level. Schools like CSU-Pueblo, School of Mines, etc. You could effectively create a very good, competitive regional conference there that collectively plays in an accurate level of football from a competition standpoint.

I do hold out hope that one of the major fallouts of this (maybe indirectly) down the road is that the craziness of the super conference business (and evidence from this year that it is not all that it is cracked up to be) that we return to a regionalized format of college football in some sense.

[tony]

With all due respect, NDSU isn't a top 100 research university by any measure. Its a very fine school and all but its not anywhere near top 100. NDSU has a strong agricultural research component as the state's ag school, but even then they're not on the same level as most Big Ten and Big 12 ag schools.

The National Science Foundation would disagree: NDSU ranked among top 100 research universities in the nation So would Carnegie which has NDSU ranked as Research 1. So by "any measure" you must be excluding their metrics which are the only ones I know of other than the AAU (which is more exclusive the top 100.)

Your other points about media market and geography have a lot of validity. Geography and perceived media market are problematic. I would argue that NDSU's media market isn't just Fargo-Moorhead - it's the entire state and NW Minnesota though. G5 schools seem to think that the only people who would watch their games are in the immediate metro. Maybe it's because their membership is mostly directional schools and <insert name of city> State instead of being *the* state university.

That said, I'm fine with staying in the FCS and embarrassing the occasional P4 team.

[cwfenn]

That day may arrive next season.

If they could do it to Florida State (I know, different system), they can certainly do it to a non-power conference team without any effort or thought.

[Fightingscot82]

I think the bigger picture is the SEC and B1G, along with Notre Dame, are building a wall (with the help of the networks) against the ACC and Big 12. I think people are mostly going to be fine with a single token G5 sacrificial lamb, so long as it is just one G5 team and that G5 is seeded 12th. Everything now is the SEC and the B1G working in cohesion to... 1) Advocate for greater unequal distribution of TV money in the CFP. 2) Advocate for seeding changes that benefits their two leagues only. 3) Advocate for guaranteed at-large bids for their leagues only.

It's 2 leagues, Notre Dame, and then everybody else.

And there are people - a lot of them, and some in this thread - who are okay with that. I'm not. There are years the B1G has won 1 or 2 bowl games like the ACC did this year. There are years the SEC has looked pedestrian in the postseason. Those leagues all get the benefit of the doubt because they have 2-4 power players at the top that skew the perception for their entire league top to bottom. I tend to think that outside of those 2-4 teams at the top of the B1G and SEC, all four P4 leagues are generally pretty well competitive with each other across the entire season from a top to bottom comparison. Others disagree. That's fine. That's an entirely different conversation.

People want an invitational tournament for their viewing pleasure. It's almost like people just don't like watching football. They claim to love the sport. But when the rubber meets the road, they only watch if they are viewing recognizable brands. Those aren't football fans. It's funny to me that for years people advocated for an expanded FBS/1-A tournament that would model the FCS/1-AA, D2, and D3 format. They wanted "everybody to get a shot." They have their expanded field, and now they are not happy because the games are clunkers. If you watch the lower level playoffs, those early round games are littered with blowouts everywhere. But nobody cares - because nobody watches.

Yep, especially since they're PSAC fans. The PSAC is in the D2 version of G5. But Slip arguably almost won what seemed like the national championship this year. Even more reason to have equal access within FBS.

Consolidating power to the P5 did not help March Madness. It hurt because they used the expanded pool and play-in games to do it. So now we get a conference champion Florida Gulf Coast facing off against a Boston College, who won neither the conference regular season or tournament. FGCU's conference still earns their autobid money, but BC's conference wormed their way into getting another "share" of the revenue.

[Fightingscot82]

The National Science Foundation would disagree: NDSU ranked among top 100 research universities in the nation So would Carnegie which has NDSU ranked as Research 1. So by "any measure" you must be excluding their metrics which are the only ones I know of other than the AAU (which is more exclusive the top 100.)

Your other points about media market and geography have a lot of validity. Geography and perceived media market are problematic. I would argue that NDSU's media market isn't just Fargo-Moorhead - it's the entire state and NW Minnesota though. G5 schools seem to think that the only people who would watch their games are in the immediate metro. Maybe it's because their membership is mostly directional schools and <insert name of city> State instead of being *the* state university.

That said, I'm fine with staying in the FCS and embarrassing the occasional P4 team.

NSF's rankings are based purely on research expenditures, not on educational quality or the university overall. Its a weird metric. NDSU could have a 99% acceptance rate with an average SAT of 900 but spends $250M on research and they'd be in the top 75 for research. Carnegie R1 is also a reflection of how the university is structured: academically its set up more for research than teaching and they meet a threshold of a certain % of their degrees awarded being graduate degrees. Again, another weird metric.

If I were NDSU, I'm staying pat and using football to attract more students and strengthen the other parts of the university. Fargo isn't a bad place at all and while I'm not a fan of indoor stadiums, the Fargodome has an awesome atmosphere.

[Fightingscot82]

Pitt will play Duquesne in football next year.

[tony]

NSF's rankings are based purely on research expenditures, not on educational quality or the university overall. Its a weird metric. NDSU could have a 99% acceptance rate with an average SAT of 900 but spends $250M on research and they'd be in the top 75 for research. Carnegie R1 is also a reflection of how the university is structured: academically its set up more for research than teaching and they meet a threshold of a certain % of their degrees awarded being graduate degrees. Again, another weird metric.

If I were NDSU, I'm staying pat and using football to attract more students and strengthen the other parts of the university. Fargo isn't a bad place at all and while I'm not a fan of indoor stadiums, the Fargodome has an awesome atmosphere.

Let's be clear about this: Undergrad acceptance rate is the single most useless metric in higher ed, followed closely by average SAT score of incoming freshmen; moreover, neither metric is applicable to research, mainly because undergrads aren't the ones driving research.

As for what NDSU's athletic department should do? It seems like investing heavily in basketball would be the smart play, but NDSU's athletic department is built around football. I'm hoping that the unexpected success this season will help boost attendance, but it is hard to beat the convenience of watching the games at home or in at a bar on ABC statewide every week - and, really, attendance isn't important to the bottom line at NDSU.

NDSU going from DII to DI was an obvious, though hotly debated, move. Moving to the FBS is not nearly so much of a slam dunk. For example, if the Mountain West was interested in being a more competitive FBS conference, they'd have invited NDSU. They did not and that showed me that their priorities don't align with NDSU's in any way, shape, or form.

[SW_Mustang]

The National Science Foundation would disagree: NDSU ranked among top 100 research universities in the nation So would Carnegie which has NDSU ranked as Research 1. So by "any measure" you must be excluding their metrics which are the only ones I know of other than the AAU (which is more exclusive the top 100.)

The Carnegie Classifications are just marketing tools at this point. They don't mean a whole lot. Minnesota has one R1 institution and it's barely ranked as the third best college in its own state. It's a way for State Us to sell exclusivity and quality to prospective admissions. I live a few blocks from an R2 and the vast majority of expenditures go to agriculture research, but they'd sure be happy to tell kids that want to study economics or history about their R2 status. Harvard, on the other hand, doesn't need to tell people they're an R1.

The only two groupings that matter in a broad sense are the AAU and the Oberlin Group. Any other metric used to measure exclusivity, including the USWNR rankings is really just marketing.