PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Bart]

The university has sovereign immunity as an agent of the state unless an employee negligently played a role. A few years ago Bloomsburg paid something like $30k to have consultants come to campus and assess Greek Life. The report (public record) said the director was incompetent and she remained employed. So yeah maybe there's some culpability.

Bloomsburg as a public can't stop students from joining legally separate organizations. So if the chapters vote to operate without university recognition like is happening at WVU and Duke, nothing will change. It's like refusing to police neighborhoods with high crime.

That was when Diane Sommerville Dean of Students was released from her position. It is difficulty to believe there would be more deaths, sexual misconducts, assaults, and hazing without Greek life. They may be able to still function in some capacity, but will no longer have cover from the university or use of facilities for recruiting and meetings. Besides the local police do most of the enforcing of local laws, not the university administrators. Greek life was on life support probation, and continued to violate the rules with new leadership.

[iupgroundhog]

I thought true IQ tests were mainly administered to school aged children. I remember in 11th grade somebody learned that if you were 16 years old you could see your own file in the HS office. So, 3 of my buddies and I did just that. It had 3 IQ test scores taken at different ages. Mine ranged from 126 -132. My best friend was literally a genius and he had a 147. He committed suicide at age 38.

[Bart]

I thought true IQ tests were mainly administered to school aged children. I remember in 11th grade somebody learned that if you were 16 years old you could see your own file in the HS office. So, 3 of my buddies and I did just that. It had 3 IQ test scores taken at different ages. Mine ranged from 126 -132. My best friend was literally a genius and he had a 147. He committed suicide at age 38.

You can take an IQ test at any age, although the older you are the less likely the scores increase. In prison, all new inmates get an IQ test as part of their classification.

[ironmaniup]

But the disturbing finding was not about fewer 130 IQs than they expected. IQ tests are good for finding intellectual disabilities, and someone with a score 1 std dev below average probably shouldn't be enrolled as a pre-med. I truly believe that hard work and doing the right thing can get most people really far in life, but there are limits where all the work and good intentions and help in the world won't help. In fact, its almost cruel to put these students in that situation.

[Fightingscot82]

But the disturbing finding was not about fewer 130 IQs than they expected. IQ tests are good for finding intellectual disabilities, and someone with a score 1 std dev below average probably shouldn't be enrolled as a pre-med. I truly believe that hard work and doing the right thing can get most people really far in life, but there are limits where all the work and good intentions and help in the world won't help. In fact, its almost cruel to put these students in that situation.

Only the super selective schools require an interview for admissions which is probably the only way to even subjectively identify aptitude without considering environmental factors. Even then we've all learned how these schools can be manipulated. Similar to what I said yesterday, high school graduates are increasingly showing signs of shallow learning, probably from a lifetime of multiple choice "recall" tests and very little critical thinking & analysis. Students fill in B for World War II ending in 1945 but can't explain how it ended. In the basic subjects, more and more students are coming to college with poor math & writing skills and need remedial coursework before they can even take the basic required courses. That increases the time and cost needed to complete a degree. I can't say that's on colleges - that's on high schools. Average SAT score is up almost 125 points over the last 20 years because kids are now conditioned to taking standardized tests. Social Studies classes break to have coaching lessons for state exams or SAT prep. But Johnny and Suzie can't write a 2 page paper analyzing the plot of a story they read.

[iupgroundhog]

Only the super selective schools require an interview for admissions which is probably the only way to even subjectively identify aptitude without considering environmental factors. Even then we've all learned how these schools can be manipulated. Similar to what I said yesterday, high school graduates are increasingly showing signs of shallow learning, probably from a lifetime of multiple choice "recall" tests and very little critical thinking & analysis. Students fill in B for World War II ending in 1945 but can't explain how it ended. In the basic subjects, more and more students are coming to college with poor math & writing skills and need remedial coursework before they can even take the basic required courses. That increases the time and cost needed to complete a degree. I can't say that's on colleges - that's on high schools. Average SAT score is up almost 125 points over the last 20 years because kids are now conditioned to taking standardized tests. Social Studies classes break to have coaching lessons for state exams or SAT prep. But Johnny and Suzie can't write a 2 page paper analyzing the plot of a story they read.

And we continue to devalue the liberal arts in post-secondary education.

[Fightingscot82]

And we continue to devalue the liberal arts in post-secondary education.

Exactly - but I think analysis and critical thinking skills can probably be taught with a more focused approach. Maybe instead of requiring an Intro to Philosophy class students can take professional ethics. Or instead of an English composition course students can take a course on research related to their field. Unfortunately most of the argument for the liberal arts is done by academics passionate about their vocation. There's virtually no research that connects common liberal arts core subjects to skill development. An art history course doesn't do much for the student if it doesn't force them to think with a different lens even for just that course.

[iupgroundhog]

Exactly - but I think analysis and critical thinking skills can probably be taught with a more focused approach. Maybe instead of requiring an Intro to Philosophy class students can take professional ethics. Or instead of an English composition course students can take a course on research related to their field. Unfortunately most of the argument for the liberal arts is done by academics passionate about their vocation. There's virtually no research that connects common liberal arts core subjects to skill development. An art history course doesn't do much for the student if it doesn't force them to think with a different lens even for just that course.

I think it's an important part of the liberal arts education to have the exposure of other students from different disciplines. That's one of the things that makes it liberal. As an economics major, I was taught to evaluate things in a certain way. A lot of disciplines develop a specific mindset in their students.

To teach liberal arts from the perspective of one's own discipline is not liberal arts. It does not engender an open-minded approach. It would be narrow.

I agree that people can't think for themselves. You can see that all too plainly these days. How do you teach those critical thinking skills online? (I'll wait.)

[Bart]

But the disturbing finding was not about fewer 130 IQs than they expected. IQ tests are good for finding intellectual disabilities, and someone with a score 1 std dev below average probably shouldn't be enrolled as a pre-med. I truly believe that hard work and doing the right thing can get most people really far in life, but there are limits where all the work and good intentions and help in the world won't help. In fact, its almost cruel to put these students in that situation.

There are successful MDs with average IQs. I know because I have tested some. Learning disabilities can also affect scores. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both had learning disabilities; Jobs dropped out of school. The concept of intelligence being a single ability accurately represented by a single score such as IQ has been seriously challenged by research. We know the brain isn't fully developed until age 25, so writing off young adults as not college material may be inaccurate. Let the classroom make the decision, instead of IQ tests that can be like reading tea leaves.

The overall functioning that is represented by IQ is actually the result of at least four, (and possibly more) separate cognitive abilities. The are most commonly identified as verbal reasoning, nonverbal reasoning, working memory and processing speed. When these are all functioning at the same level, then a single score such as the IQ can be regarded as validly representing a person's intelligence. However, It is not uncommon for people with learning disabilities to have very uneven functioning in these four areas, perhaps ranging from very low to very high. Consequently, a child or adult's reasoning and learning abilities may be much higher than what is reflected in the IQ score. Unfortunately, it is the lower IQ score that is often used.

[ironmaniup]

There are successful MDs with average IQs. I know because I have tested some. Learning disabilities can also affect scores. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both had learning disabilities; Jobs dropped out of school. The concept of intelligence being a single ability accurately represented by a single score such as IQ has been seriously challenged by research. We know the brain isn't fully developed until age 25, so writing off young adults as not college material may be inaccurate. Let the classroom make the decision, instead of IQ tests that can be like reading tea leaves.

Learning disabilities, and intellectual disabilities are not the same thing. For the vast majority of people the IQ scores are predictive of academic success. The NFL combine even has a test to judge intellect. I'll wager that there are not any MDs who test significantly below average (say around 85). If a student has some reason that their test scores are not predictive, highschool classes should sort that out. Unfortunately some schools don't do a great job at this, and rate themselves based on how many students they get into college rather than giving the students good advice for the future. ,

So what's the big deal ? why not give everyone a chance ?

Because it leads to many problems for the student. foremost Cost, since these students often require 30% more courses. then there's the emotional pain and frustration they experience, which leads to other problems. For the university, the support required for these students is significant, and takes the focus off the successful students, and worse, those average students that work hard and could achieve much more (these are the ones you are really talking about). Sadly, there is also the moral hazard for the university, as keeping these students enrolled improves the short term revenue, helps important comparative metrics like first year retention rate, and its justified by the same arguments you are making, despite knowing the students chance to turn things around are extremely low.

Long term, it hurts the university, with more costs for all the support, which impacts the successful students in a negative way as well. I'm sure this effects the way the state chooses to fund the universities, as well as enrollment questions. There are absolutely those students that unexpectedly turn things around, It feels great when you can help make this happen, but basing a universities policy on those few examples is like basing your retirement on lottery tickets.

[Bart]

Learning disabilities, and intellectual disabilities are not the same thing. For the vast majority of people the IQ scores are predictive of academic success. The NFL combine even has a test to judge intellect. I'll wager that there are not any MDs who test significantly below average (say around 85). If a student has some reason that their test scores are not predictive, highschool classes should sort that out. Unfortunately some schools don't do a great job at this, and rate themselves based on how many students they get into college rather than giving the students good advice for the future. ,

So what's the big deal ? why not give everyone a chance ?

Because it leads to many problems for the student. foremost Cost, since these students often require 30% more courses. then there's the emotional pain and frustration they experience, which leads to other problems. For the university, the support required for these students is significant, and takes the focus off the successful students, and worse, those average students that work hard and could achieve much more (these are the ones you are really talking about). Sadly, there is also the moral hazard for the university, as keeping these students enrolled improves the short term revenue, helps important comparative metrics like first year retention rate, and its justified by the same arguments you are making, despite knowing the students chance to turn things around are extremely low.

Long term, it hurts the university, with more costs for all the support, which impacts the successful students in a negative way as well. I'm sure this effects the way the state chooses to fund the universities, as well as enrollment questions. There are absolutely those students that unexpectedly turn things around, It feels great when you can help make this happen, but basing a universities policy on those few examples is like basing your retirement on lottery tickets.

I am not saying they should get support services or receive extra help. I am for giving a high school graduate a chance, not to base the future on an IQ test. Let every school make it's own decisions based on supply and demand. I doubt they would find enough students with a superior IQs over 120 typical of a person with a doctoral degree If the students you mention getting tested by other students are still in school, that would show they can do the work. Perhaps students in the psych class should be testing each other. They may find that most of their peers are in the 90-109 range. Most of the 85 scores would have been weeded out of academics based on interest and performance, and into vocational education in high school, if they even earned a high school diploma. .

As for the NFL, they measure many variables that may not reflect on field performance. I don't agree with deciding someone's future by an IQ test. Should we test all children before school to tell tell them what job they will have in the future. Self-fulfilling prophesy. Water finds it's own level, and life shatters dreams, that's how it should be.

[IUPNation]

https://www.iup.edu/admissions/alumni-volunteers/

[ironmaniup]

I am not saying they should get support services or receive extra help. I am for giving a high school graduate a chance, not to base the future on an IQ test. Let every school make it's own decisions based on supply and demand. I doubt they would find enough students with a superior IQs over 120 typical of a person with a doctoral degree If the students you mention getting tested by other students are still in school, that would show they can do the work. Perhaps students in the psych class should be testing each other. They may find that most of their peers are in the 90-109 range. Most of the 85 scores would have been weeded out of academics based on interest and performance, and into vocational education in high school, if they even earned a high school diploma. .

As for the NFL, they measure many variables that may not reflect on field performance. I don't agree with deciding someone's future by an IQ test. Should we test all children before school to tell tell them what job they will have in the future. Self-fulfilling prophesy. Water finds it's own level, and life shatters dreams, that's how it should be. [TABLE="class: tablesaw tablesaw-swipe"]

We don't disagree on giving a highschool graduate a chance, The point I was making is that we are seeing a greater percentage of the ~90 or lower IQ levels coming. These students, when considered as a group, bring a significantly larger number of problems. The intangibles such students need to make it through any moderately rigorous program are substantial. As a group they also bring in many other problems. ( that's the other part of increasing enrollment, there seems to be more personal/social problems as well. ) I'd hope, as you say the Highschool would sort these students out and put them on better paths where they could be successful, since being misplaced is almost cruel to them. Its great inspiration to tell people you can be what ever you want as long as you work hard enough. But its wrong to not give someone a good Idea of what Hard enough really means.

[IUPNation]

That's a really, really stupid move. More kids will die.

[complaint_hopeful]

Some of the Unions are talking to lawmakers now:

@PASTATEDEMS Twitter
"It seems like they want to ram it through and figure it out later." Ross Brumagin, president of AFSCME Local 2329, speaks about the PASSHE Plan to consolidate schools and how it will affect workers. Watch our #SenDemPolicy Committee hearing http://SenatorMuth.com/policy/